Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Deciduous Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Herman on July 18, 2014, 07:51 AM

Title: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 18, 2014, 07:51 AM
Hi guys,

Some more bad pics haha. Just wired out my twin trin knob thorn.

Bit unconventional type of style for this tree. Though in the wild tha have very long straight trunks and form a column shaped silhouette, so ive decided to have fun with this one

Kind regards
Herman

Ps will go take some better pics and post them later
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Owen Reich on July 18, 2014, 08:21 AM
How hard can you cut them back when dormant?
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 18, 2014, 09:25 AM
Hi Owen,

you can cut them back to the first node on a branch just as the buds starts to swell. This usually causes heavy back budding and even double budding from the same node.

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Judy on July 18, 2014, 10:54 AM
I would like to see more of this tree, hopefully upright this time.
We seem to be seeing a lot of this new style of tree, instead of informal upright it's "informal sideways" that is all the rage :D :D
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2014, 04:18 AM
Hehehe, the new thing seems to be upside down growing trees...beats me how the people keep the growing medium inside the pots  ;D

some history on this tree...

in 1998 my big brother planted a whole lot of seed, and in spring 2004 my brother sold most of them to a commercial nursery, as the owner wanted to start marketing thorn tree bonsai, only the smaller weaker trees stayed behind. In 2005 it was given to me as a gift. it had a 3 inch trunk and stood about 2-3 feet high. It was a no brainer that i would train it into a bushveld thorn tree style; but in it's second winter with me it got left outside and was hit by black frost, bad judgement on my side...the tree died back to soil level. I checked it in spring for signs of life and saw it was pushing two buds on either side of the trunk just above soil level. I cut back the dead trunk to just above the new buds and left it to grow for 2 years before starting to work on it. after a repot in 2012 it started sulking and didn't put much growth on at all until december last year when it suddenly perked up and pushed a lot of new growth. so I worked it this winter.

I've taken some new pics of 4 sides and a shot from above. pics to follow in the next post

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2014, 04:23 AM
Front then backside
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2014, 04:24 AM
Left and right sides
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2014, 04:25 AM
From above
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Sorce on July 24, 2014, 07:26 AM
Another killer.

Where you been hiding these?

Please share a leaf pic in spring.

Sorce
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2014, 07:51 AM
Another killer.

Where you been hiding these?

Please share a leaf pic in spring.

Sorce

HAHAHA, Thanks for the compliments dude,  ;D

Been trying to whip them into shape before posting them.

Will definitely keep this thread updated as the tree progresses.

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: John Kirby on July 27, 2014, 06:29 PM
Herman, another interesting one. You don't want this to end up looking like a pine. The question is how do you get it to transition to a number of smaller vertically growing branches to build an apex, think small broom. Think as you look at the branching, some of the larger upper branches could be shortened and the angles adjusted to make them intermediate the tapered, this would allpw you to visualize the transition from the oldest, heaviest and sagging lower branches up through the intermediate portion of the tree to the youngest and most vertical portion of the tree, the top. Very nice, very well developed, and nicely wired.
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on July 28, 2014, 02:40 AM
Hello Mr Kirby,

I agree that some of the top branches are very heavy and I plan to cut back hard on them when the tree starts budding in late September early October. This will give me a whole lot of branches to create the apex with. Small broom on top for an apex will look very natural and I'm going to follow your advice. Another shortcoming of this tree is that the lower branches are thin compared to the top ones...this happened in the last growing season when the tree finally got into second gear after it sulked for a long time due to a weak root system. So the benefit will be two fold when I cut it hard in the apex region.

thank you for the compliments :)

Best regards
Herman

Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on September 26, 2014, 01:15 AM
All leafed out  :)


Comments welcome
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Sorce on September 26, 2014, 02:25 PM
That first image is wonderful.

 I'm diggin this one leafy.

 I think it has a good direction. As in, a lil more ram and a few years.

Thanks for the update!

Sorce
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: fredman on October 26, 2014, 07:03 AM
I'm sorry but it just don't work for me. No offence but a Knob thorns strength starts at the bottom with its strong spreading branches tapering upwards. I did see some very old knobbies in Botswana that had long bare trunks, but their upper branches are always reaching for the sky. Those pulled down side branches just does not work on a state like tree as a Knob thorn...... :(
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: J.Kent on October 26, 2014, 10:42 AM
Quote
You don't want this to end up looking like a pine.

Agree 100 percent.  This looks like a bonsai, not a tree.

Doesn't work for me, either.  The "daughter" tree bends too slowly; it needs some sudden movement.  Cut off most of the foliage and let an outside branch take over as top. 

Eliminate the main pointy top to just above the new daughter tree height and again let some side branches fight for dominance as the top.  These trees NEED to be flat tops.  Get Ceronio's "Bonsai Styles of the World."
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on October 27, 2014, 03:49 AM
Quote
You don't want this to end up looking like a pine.

Agree 100 percent.  This looks like a bonsai, not a tree.

Doesn't work for me, either.  The "daughter" tree bends too slowly; it needs some sudden movement.  Cut off most of the foliage and let an outside branch take over as top. 

Eliminate the main pointy top to just above the new daughter tree height and again let some side branches fight for dominance as the top.  These trees NEED to be flat tops.  Get Ceronio's "Bonsai Styles of the World."

you are one of those that believe a species should only be trained in bonsai as they look in nature, aren't you?

your post would've been more believable if you knew how these grow in nature...It's okay that my tree does not work for you, taste differs after all...compare the first sketch to the two others, and then look at my tree again...

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on October 27, 2014, 03:51 AM
the other two pics
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: VanceWood on October 27, 2014, 08:21 AM
There are a lot of options and choices as your drawings illustrate.  There is also something else that should be considered-----what do you see in the tree?  That really is the important thing not if it fits into the style box of crap that has come before.   If I had listened to all of the naysayers over the years I would not be doing Mugo Pines today.  I would be producing the same boring trees in the same boring ways as they do. 

It is nice to have suggestions and opinions so that you can examine your work through someone else's eyes and points of view but---- do you approve of their designs and the way they do things?  So often we cower under the bite of someone's criticism not realizing that the critic does not do their own work and cannot do their own stuff without help.  I just point that out to you because it is a lesson I just recently learned to my own amazement.
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: fredman on October 27, 2014, 03:29 PM
Very true. I deal with that regularly. Crying foul will not improve my trees. We can only become better Bonsaists by the critique of others. One don't have to change ones design but hopefully it makes you look at it through different eyes, and opens up some other options. Its up to you to evaluate and do what sooths your soul.
If you in the end feel truly satisfied with your design, then that is all that matters.
This tree is going the pyramid pine way and in the finish it will just be another bonsai. All the power of a typical Acacia will be lost....... :(
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on October 28, 2014, 08:54 AM
A few being trained in pierneef or flat top style, there are more of these

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: fredman on October 28, 2014, 07:25 PM
WoW you are the man Herman. Thanks for showing them. Now you can send me a tissue  :'(
Paperbark, Monkey ...?
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: fredman on October 28, 2014, 08:55 PM
What makes Acacia so special is those thorns. Different looking thorns on different species. Tortillis with two different thorn shapes in one is very special to me. What is also very interesting is the long thorns has round flowers, and the short thorns has long flowers. Thorns makes a fantastic feature in a bonsai.....! 
Did you know Acacia in Greek means thorn? Makes me wonder Why African Acacia is now Senegal and Australian's Acacia..... Aussie Acacia don't even have thorns but they are called by that name.... Crazy  Bureaucrats  >:(
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on October 29, 2014, 12:48 AM
WoW you are the man Herman. Thanks for showing them. Now you can send me a tissue  :'(
Paperbark, Monkey ...?

Hi Fredman,

Black, white monkey thorn, blue tjorn and knob thorn. Planting scented thorn, robust thorn and camel thorn seeds in a few months

Tears of happyness? Dude....  :-\

I'm going to make you eat you piramid pine words with the knob thorn in this thread...I never planned on making the ttree a pine style. Knob thorn just grows that way when young because of the shoots extending too far for the tree to keep it upwards, you get that with young black monkey thorn as well...aiming for bushveld style which may be seen as a variant of the classic moyogi style, the primary branches would be going sideways and maybe a bit downwards with the secondaries going up....

Here is a pic of a very young black monkey thorn I've never touched to prove it



Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: fredman on October 29, 2014, 03:49 PM
Mate I will gladly eat my words for the sake of that tree. I believe your intentions. I over reacted when I saw that pointy top and the drawn down branches. My bad then.
No its tears of sadness. When I left 10 years ago I had to get rid of my Acacias. I gave them all away to people that will appreciate them. I had 25 different varieties. I just had a tissue moment for them...... :(
Blue thorn (Blouhaak) is one of my favourites. They are stunning when matured. Has the most beautiful thorns to.
Do you have the "driedoring"?
I have always wondered if you plant a camel thorn (or any other flat top or umbrella Acacia) in a pot. Remove its tap root and leave it without training it. Because of its genetics, will it end up looking like they do in nature when matured in that pot?
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Herman on November 03, 2014, 12:29 AM
You mean the small bushes in the kalahari and richters veld and karoo that's called drie doring? Did not know it's used for bonsai, must be hardcto get them to trunk up? I'm experimenting with red and brown ivory and pod and mountain mahogany also snotbas and gwarry bos.

Maybe one can try such an experiment with the acacia's that bushes early on like black monke, knob and robust thorn. The idea would be to completely leave them alone until it has bushed up to the point where you will have a lot to work with.

Like this young black monkey thorn...was trunk chopped early on to create movement in the trunk then left to grow for a year. Going to wire it next august.
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: Jason E on November 03, 2014, 07:35 PM
Looks like your working w/ some pretty neat species there Herman, Thanks for sharing. That last looks promising.

JE
Title: Re: acacia nigrescens winter image
Post by: fredman on November 03, 2014, 08:53 PM
Wow mate there is an endless array of trees that can be used in that country. You must really appretiate it. Its unique is so many ways..... :)
Herman the Drie doring is the Acacia Senegal var. rostrata and Acacia senegal var. leiorhachis. They can be bonsaied in an African style. I had the Rostata and its something special because of the unusual thorns. Three on a node all mostly rectangular. It makes a beautiful feature on the tree. They grow in the north east of Southern Africa.
 I got mine from Patryshoek Nursery on the De Wildt/ Brits road. They specialize in natives. Even got a section with potential bonsai trees. (bent, broken and damaged trees not suited for retail. Ideal for bonsai)
I recently imported some seeds that I germinated this season......Acacia xanthophloea and karroo, Red/Brown ivory, Bolusanthus speciosus, African olea, Celtis Africana, Mundelea sericea, Erythrina caffra to use as bonsai and to plant as trees here.
Have you seen Bolusanthus speciosus (Van Wyks hout) used as bonsai over there?
Another project I have is that of a Portulacaria afra (spekboom) i'm doing in a umbrella style. It has a 4 inch trunk and is 3 ft high. I have since planted it in the ground inside its pot (drilled some holes around the pot) because it grows exceptionally slowly in this colder weather. Its been planted in pure pumice for the last 3 years now. I have since drawn the branches down more and its ramification is also better. This is a older photo of it. Will post a newer one once I got my new phone sorted. It looks much better nowadays. It looks a bit boring from this angle but has good movement from other angles.  :D