Bonsai Study Group Forum

Advanced Techniques => Advanced Bending Discussion => Topic started by: Dan James on December 28, 2012, 07:27 AM

Title: White pine jin placement
Post by: Dan James on December 28, 2012, 07:27 AM
Hi Everyone,

I was restyling an old White pine and I had the opportunity to steam bend (but that's not exactly what we did) a jin.

I thought I'd share the process.

First image is of the tree before any styling.
Second image shows that I removed the large front branch.
Third image shows that the jin is parallel to the first branch, which design wise is problematic.
Forth image shows plastic protecting the pot and branches from hot water and steam.
Fifth image shows the jin slightly refined and wired prior to the bend.
Sixth image shows the container of boiling water on kerosene stove.
Seventh image is of the the final result after bend and full wiring.

After preparing and wiring the jin, I simply held the tree over the boiling water, while submerging the jins in the water for about five minutes. I quickly placed the tree back on the stand and bent the wires appropriately. They certainly softened up from being in the hot water. I'm slightly skeptical about whether they will hold or not, but my teacher swears that when I remove the wire in about a month the jins position will remain.

I'll re-post the results after the wire is removed.
Hope this was useful or interesting for some of you.

Cheers,

Dan
Title: Re: White pine jin placement-last three pics of process
Post by: Dan James on December 28, 2012, 07:33 AM
The last three pics.
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Jay on December 29, 2012, 08:23 AM
Dan, thanks for showing the progessive pictures. I have a question for you or your teacher.

The bending of the Jin was on a recently alive branch. The branch was "somewhat" flexable from it being alive. The question is: Would this method work equaly as well on a branch that has been dead for a while?

Jay
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Dan James on December 29, 2012, 09:16 AM
Hi Jay,

Good question. I had asked him the same thing and he told me that an old dead branch can be bent this way as well. If you look closely at the first or last image, you will see a smaller old jin above the large, new one. This Jin was very stiff before this technique was applied. It was less flexible than the new jin, but it could be manipulated. As I said before, I'm a little skeptical about how well these jins will remain in place after I remove the wire, but I will let you know when I do.

Glad you found it interesting.

Dan
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Adair M on December 29, 2012, 09:37 AM
Thinking about traditional woodworking techniques (making chairs, etc.) steam bending is a valid technique.  I don't know of why it wouldn't work for wood still attached to a live tree, too.

Nice photos showing the technique!  And it looks like it worked for you.

Personally, the long jin is too long and straight, but that's just my opinion.  And the older jin... it appears to hide the upper trunk line.   

The tree in the final photo is very well wired out and styled very nicely.  Without "being there" it's hard to tell if the jin(s) enhance or detract from the overall design.  I'm thinking that shari on the right side of the tree trunk combined with substantial reduction in the length of the jins may make the jins more believable.  There is no need to rush to make a decision like this, the tree is quite nice the way you have it.  Very well done!
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Chrisl on December 29, 2012, 12:58 PM
I've wired and bent newly exposed jins on pines and junipers for only a few months, and it stayed in position.  Don't think you'd need t steam new jins in order to bend them from what I've seen.

Nice job styling btw ;)
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Jay on December 29, 2012, 01:28 PM
Chris, that was part of my thoughts when I asked the question above. I'm guessing and Dan can confirm, that the new Jin was thick and not bending easy.....

Dan thanks for the reply.
Jay
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Dan James on December 30, 2012, 08:08 AM
Thanks for your thoughts everyone,

The  reason that I decided to steam bend was that the new jin was really large and stiff, the old jin was dry and brittle.


In response to Adair, I have to agree that the jin(s) might just be too long and straight. I decided to take a baby step, by moving it above the branch line, and l might decide to reduce it later, just don't know yet. Thanks for your input.

What does everyone else thing about those jins? Should they be shortened?
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Jay on December 31, 2012, 06:38 AM
I do. The old one a little...the new one by a lot... It is too long and straight.
Jay
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: MatsuBonsai on December 31, 2012, 07:25 PM
I'll ask the same questions that I would ask of myself if it were mine:


I think "white pine final-small.jpg" really shows the tree well.  I think more movement to the lower jin would improve it, whether that be with bending or light carving.  Perhaps try to mimic the movement of the lower trunk?
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Dirk on January 01, 2013, 02:12 PM
John,

I'm impressed with your reply. I think it is hard to ask yourself those questions about your own trees.
I think its hard to look real objective at your trees.
As hard maybe as seeing possible improvements in an already very good tree. I remember Walter Pall saying:
Good is the enemy of better!
Greetings
Dirk
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: John Kirby on January 01, 2013, 03:58 PM
Walter was paraphrasing Jim Collins among others, any one have an ancient Greek or Latin source? Was an OK book.
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Dirk on January 01, 2013, 04:24 PM
I did not say that Walter invented this statement, just that he sad it.
I think he's right though.
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: John Kirby on January 01, 2013, 04:50 PM
The jin in its current form doesnotwork for me, shorten or as John said add movement. Not sure about this approach fo bending (or straightening?) green wood.
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: bwaynef on January 02, 2013, 08:46 AM
The lower jin is a little jarring.  Its longer than it has to be, and and the movement is somewhat distracting as well.  I think it would be drastically improved if it's movement complemented the lower trunk.  (It doesn't have to MIRROR the lower trunk ...and might be better if it didn't.)
Title: Re: White pine jin placement
Post by: Dan James on January 02, 2013, 11:04 AM
I have to agree with all of you.

I was initially simply interested in steam bending, as I had never done it before.

I always try to work from general to specific. I knew that if the jin remained exactly in front of the back branch, then it would be a negative aspect of the tree. I decided to simply raise it up an inch or more to make it possibly useful and to give me more options. I will certainly have to do something with it, but I'm giving myself time to think about it. Once it's gone, it's gone.

I got exactly what I wanted (a lot of constructive feedback) thanks.

I'll post when I make the changes.


Thanks again.

Dan