Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => White Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Adair M on January 27, 2015, 11:38 AM

Title: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 27, 2015, 11:38 AM
One of my long term goals has been to have a really nice JWP. In particular a Zuicho. I kept thinking I might stumble across one, but no luck. Last summer, I asked John Kiby if he knew of any that might be available. He said no, but Boon has a nice Kokonoe that might be available.

Well, as it turns out Boon did have a nice Kokonoe, and he was going to have Diasuko Nomoto, Boon's Senior, style it when he visited in January. And,remarkably, it is very similar to John's fantastic Kokonoe white pine. This thread http://bonsaistudygroup.com/white-pine-discussion/kokonoe-white-pine/ (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/white-pine-discussion/kokonoe-white-pine/)
Details the story of John's pine.

Since this tree is also a twin trunk white pine, and also has grown white pine roots over the black pine roots, it was called "Little Brother" or "Mini-me".

Boon did not purchase these two at the same time, Mini-me was purchased two years after he aquired Big Brother, about 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 27, 2015, 11:55 AM
The first thing Diasuko did was cut back and thin the tree all over.

Then, a decision: the smaller tree had a very large branch. In fact, it was the largest branch on the tree. It was in a good place, just too heavy. Diasuko recommended cutting it off. Since it was my tree, he made me do it!  We had some fun with the removed branch and trimmings!  That was pretty much the end of my active decision making. Diasuko removed other branches as he worked his was up the tree. His wiring technique is amazing. As an example, when bending a branch down from the trunk, he would bend the branch, then apply the wire as opposed to wiring then bending.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 27, 2015, 12:06 PM
The work wasn't continuous. This was just before the BIB show, and many members had "emergency" work to be done on their trees to get them ready for the show.

When Diasuko was pruning the tree, he said he thought it was Zuicho, not Kokonoe. Zuicho has a more pointed bud, Kokonoe, more rounded. Unfortunately, John had taken his Kokonoe home so we couldn't do a direct comparison. The two cultivars are very difficult to distinguish. Diasuko continued to call it a Zuicho, so I'm going with that.

The final result is quite a change from the original bush. Now that it is wired out, we will get back budding, and it should thicken back up quickly. I hope to be able to show it in two or three years.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: William N. Valavanis on January 27, 2015, 12:37 PM
Based on the growth habit of last year's shoots, your tree appears to e a Zuisho Japanese five-needle pine.

Nice tree!!
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: DorianJF on January 27, 2015, 12:43 PM
Man oh Man

What I would give to have a tree like that.

Very Nice Tree.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Judy on January 27, 2015, 04:35 PM
Cool tree Adair, not your average JWP!
 Makes me excited to see what I will do with mine.  I've decided to hold off on doing the cutback until I achieve the new planting angle. 
So it's really nice to see you getting this one off to a stellar start! 

Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: tmmason10 on January 27, 2015, 04:39 PM
Wow, killer tree! Nice end result I can't wait to see how it looks in two years.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: John Kirby on January 27, 2015, 10:17 PM
Was always different from the Kokonoe, but not so different. Nice to see how you and Daisaku came to agreement on how to move forward. This will be fun to watch the progress over the next few years, I think you have a really interesting and beautiful tree. Was good to spend a few days with you and the cohort at Boon's.

John

( the pot you got from Daichan is for this tree?)
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 28, 2015, 02:01 AM
The one in the cabinet is.

The little round antique Japanese is for my red pine.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Sorce on January 28, 2015, 05:12 AM
.............. :-X

 :o.  (Insert blasphemous expletive)

How can one not absolutely love the foilage of white pine? And this, a most wonderful specimen.

One day, a white pine will be my most expensive single bonsai purchase EVER. Of this I am sure.

Adair, I admire your dedication,  and eye for great quality. You should be a Bonsai Broker!

(Sounds of thunder echoing through a Rocky Mountain canyon)

Sorce
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Brian Van Fleet on January 28, 2015, 07:25 AM
Nice start!  Do you know if it has been mostly container-grown, or had some years in the ground to thicken up?
FWIW my Zuisho has done very well here in Bham over the last 8 years; better than the non-dwarf cultivars.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 28, 2015, 07:50 AM
Brian,

Good to know Zuisho does well here in the South. That was my one reservation about acquiring the tree.

I can only speak about the last 15 years.  Boon bought the tree from a bonsai nursery in Japan 15 years ago. At that time it was about the same height as it is now. It had the smooth bark of young JWP. It has developed the rough bark over the past 15 years.

Boon says it was legally imported. He has all the paperwork.

It has been container grown since he purchased it.

For what it's worth, he was told by the nursery where he bought it that it was a Kokonoe. So that's what he thought it was.

The interesting thing is how this tree, and John's Kokonoe both were originally grafted on JBP stock, and both sent out new roots so that they are both now growing on their own roots. We will never know if this was by design or purely accidental. The trees came from two entirely different sources. The JBP roots have been removed.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: John Kirby on January 28, 2015, 05:51 PM
The gyozan in the cabinet is very nice and should fit the tree really well.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: SHIMA1 on January 29, 2015, 03:14 AM
Julian Adams has zuisho air layers. I don't know why we don't see more of them in the west. The story of the discovery of the sport by suzuki-san was in an early issue of bonsai today.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 29, 2015, 06:15 AM
One of the nice features of this tree is size of the branches. The trunk is as wide as a soda can, but the branches are mostly pencil size. This greatly aids to the illusion of size. The relatively thin branches make the trunk look larger.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: DorianJF on January 29, 2015, 06:52 AM
Adair

What is the actual height?
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 29, 2015, 09:59 AM
I didn't measure the height, sorry. It's about 24 inches.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: DorianJF on January 29, 2015, 12:56 PM
Really a great tree.

Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Leo in NE Illinois on January 30, 2015, 04:42 PM
Great tree, a great future ahead for it.

For what it is worth, in ggeneral, yatsubusa varieties of pines are much more likely to air layer successfully. JWP is not a species known to air lay well at all. Many cultivars refuse to co-operate. But IF your going to have success at air layering, the chances of success with yatsubusa types will be somewhat higher. The only JWP I have tried to air layer, was Arakawa, and it refused to form roots, 4 years and no roots. The age of the wood at the point where the air layer is made may be a factor. I suspect younger wood will be slightly more likely to root.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 30, 2015, 05:24 PM
Leo, this tree was not airlayered. It ground layered. The trunk was potted deep, and new roots started above the Black Pine rootstock.

I'm not sure if Boon knew this when he originally purchased it. He told me he discovered the dual root systems when he repotted it. And that's when he removed the original JBP roots.

This same thing had happened to John Kirby's Kokonoe. We will never know if either tree was layered intentionally, or just happened on its own.

Zuisho and Kokonoe layer fairly well, and will grow from cuttings.

In both cases, this has proven to have been fortunate. Grafting onto JBP accelerates the growth rate of the tree. The downside is the ugly graft scar. And, often the grafts fail, even years or decades later. The growth rate of black pine and white pine differ, and sometimes the grafts no longer match up, and the tree dies.

Having the tree on its own roots eliminates that issue. But the tree benefitted from the JBP roots in its youth.

So it leaves us to wonder whether it was just luck?  Or were the trees started this way by design?
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: William N. Valavanis on January 30, 2015, 10:30 PM
Are you certain the Zuisho was grafted onto Japanese Black Pine?  According to Japanese literature and nursery practices Zuisho is grafted onto Japanese five-needle pine (Pinus parviflora) because it is NOT compatible with Japanese Black Pine.

When I was propagating Zuisho over 30 years ago I only used Japanese five-needle pine for understock.

Bill
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 31, 2015, 08:05 AM
Interesting question, Bill. I will ask Boon. He told me JBP. But it's certainly possible that it was white pine stock.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on January 31, 2015, 08:34 PM
The plot thickens...

Boon tells me that he was taught to graft Zuisho onto JBP with a plan to airlayer it off later once the trunk has obtained the desired size. Seems there's more than one way to skin a cat!

Boon says this particular tree used to have JBP roots. Boon does say that JBP roots will fail eventually on Zuisho.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Don Blackmond on February 01, 2015, 09:47 AM
Great tree.  Great thread.  Horrible pot.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on February 01, 2015, 11:14 AM
Training pot, Don, training pot.

It has its permanent pot tucked away, biding it's time...

Sorry, I forgot to take a picture.

Actually, the pot it's in is a pretty nice pot. Just way too deep for this tree.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: John Kirby on February 01, 2015, 01:35 PM
Yep, I have seen the pot that this tree is going in to. Very nice, very subtle custom made Gyouzan pot.

Bill,
I know Kokonoe on JBP roots are extremely unstable when they get large. I take it from your comment that Zuisho are even  worse. Do you know why? I know I haven't seen any. John
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Don Blackmond on February 01, 2015, 05:03 PM
Training pot, Don, training pot.

It has its permanent pot tucked away, biding it's time...

Sorry, I forgot to take a picture.

Actually, the pot it's in is a pretty nice pot. Just way too deep for this tree.

I assumed so.  Just saying.  I like the tree.  I like the pot.  I don't like the tree in the pot for obvious reasons.

I have a bunch of trees wearing the wrong shoes....
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Leo in NE Illinois on February 04, 2015, 01:25 PM
Thanks Adair and Bill for the additional info on grafting and layering.

I will bury the graft union on my JWP Arakawa, and hope some day it will spontaneously root, though I think the reluctance of this cultivar to air layer higher up in the tree does not bode well for the eventual 'natural' or spontaneous ground layering by potting it deep enough to bury the graft union. But it is a small enough specimen, with a decent low graft, so it is possible to bury the graft without going back to a nursery can for a pot. Thanks for the info.

Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on February 04, 2015, 04:41 PM
Leo, I doubt that would work. If you are determined to have JWP roots, the way to go is by doing root grafts of little JWP seedlings onto the JWP trunk.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Herman on February 16, 2015, 02:01 AM
Hello Mr Adair,

I've been so busy on new projects at work that I missed this lovely white pine of yours?! Congrats, Its a real showy tree. Maybe one day when I've grown up and I'm rich can I make a purchase like this one  ;D

I want to start experimenting with Adcocks dwarf read on evergreen gardenworks that they are more heat tolerant than the species, maybe see if I can get a motherplant and graft some stock before I've grown up and its too late, anyway...

lovely white pine!!!

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on February 16, 2015, 02:06 PM
Thanks, Herman.

Give it a couple years to fill back out, and it will be awesome!

I'm looking forward to seeing it again in May with all the new shoots!
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Herman on February 17, 2015, 01:38 AM
Wait a minute, you do not keep it at your place?

wrong climate?

kind regards
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on February 17, 2015, 07:31 AM
No, it's at Boon's in California. It still has more styling and refinement to go.

I travel there at least 3 times a year, so I will be able to monitor the progress.

Diasaku visits Boon every year, so he will tweek it when he visits. I'll probably bring it home in 3 or 4 years after its been shown at the BIB show.

I live in the Southeast US, but up in a somewhat mountainous area. A friend who lives a couple hundred miles away but is a little warmer says he can keep Zuisho well, so I should have no issues about climate exept it does get hot and humid here in the summer. I may have to give it some partial shade in summer.
Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: Adair M on March 11, 2016, 05:34 PM
Update:  repotted!  My selected pot was a little too small for everyday use. I can perhaps use it to show, but that's a ways off. Do for now it's in this one:

Title: Re: Zuicho JWP "Mini-me"
Post by: DorianJF on March 12, 2016, 03:23 AM
Adair

That is a beautiful tree.  Well done.