Author Topic: white pine care  (Read 23716 times)

Herman

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white pine care
« on: December 18, 2013, 02:00 AM »
Hello Guys,

It's been a while since I've posted on this forum, since I've found a quick minute to post a new thread I want to know a few things about white pines. I'm busy Buying a nice grafted one on the 27th as a xmass prezzie for myself :o ;D

it was imported from china, hence it is in horrible fine compacted red loam. can I repot it this autumn after I have established how much of it's roots fill the pot. I know it's a risk to repot pines if they have recently been repotted, but I want to get it out of that horrible soil ASAP.

as to it's care, how much do I water it? the same as a normal black pine? or do I have to water it even less? don't think in terms of soil....say we have a normal black pine and a white pine on black pine root stock...they are in identical soils, do i water both of them the same frequency and amount?

I will upload photos of this bad boy once i have it in my possession

thanks in advance
best regards

Herman
 

Sorce

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 06:32 AM »
Hey Herman,

   Sounds like the soil is bad enough to risk a repot.

I'm no pine guy though, just figured to say high cause I recognize you from

   All the old posts I've read.

Welcome back. Id love to see your S.Africa addition to "the weather outside is chilly"

Sorce
 

Adair M

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 10:43 PM »
In your hot summers, you're going to have to put it under 30% shade cloth.  JWP are mountain trees, where it is cooler.
 

Herman

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 08:10 AM »
Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies  :)

@ Adair - hello again :D, yes i will be keeping it under shade net, as i will my shimpaku's, the african sun seem to be too hard on them, any suggestions as to my repotting question? the winters go down to -4 celcius, the coldest recorded temp being -7 celcius. Albeit the summers arent as hot as they are in Vanderbijl park, our hottest seems to be 36, as apposed to the 47 of vanderbijl park... it also rains a LOT!!! it has been raining hard every second day...the reason i want to get the pine into better soil..ps ive found pumice!!!! will be incorperating it into my current free draining soil mix

@hehehe its early summer here Sorce, our autumn starts around middle to end of march. I've moved to another climate so it may or may not be a shorter or longer growing season, usually an avg of 6.5 month long. Thanks for the warm welcome!

I can't wait to go pick up this bad boy!!!

ps, i will not be online until after the 26, so Happy Christmass to everyone. if you guys are going to be on the road, may God keep you safe in his hands and bring you to your destination in one piece(alive and well) !

Best regards
Herman
 

John Kirby

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 06:24 PM »
Herman,
It should do fine with afternoon shade. It will burn a good deal less water, needs a bit less fertilizer, and I wiuld not repot until winter. You can slip pot the tree up into coarser soil for the summer and then repot later when it starts to move in late winter/spring. Good luck.
 

Herman

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 12:44 AM »
Thought I'd at least update this thread with 4 photos of the tree. Only thing ive been doing is watering it and looking at it. I like the base of the tree and the branch placement. If I repot it this coming spring, can I wire it this autumn? Im asking because I think they are not as strong as black pines.

Thanks to all for the advice. It is much appreciated as always

Now I have to impatiently, patiently bid my time until I can wire it for the first time

1st pic is of the current front

Regards
Herman
 

Judy

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 07:46 AM »
Nice tree Herman, I like it very much.  Only question I have is if it really needs repotting, or if you just want to repot for other reasons.  I have found that if I want to do work on them, it's better not to repot.  And actually better not to repot unless it actually needs it.  They don't mind being a bit rootbound, just as long as the water can penetrate the rootball.
 

Dan W.

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 01:17 PM »
Does the "horrible red loam" happen to be akadama?

I only ask because akadama is supposed to break down. The tree looks nice and healthy to me. Is it draining out the bottom when you water? If it is akadama and it's formed a "cake" around the rootball then you just need to shave some off the ends and underneath, tease out the roots, and then place a coarse mixture of akadama and pumice or something similar around to fill in the space. -- And that's only if it actually needs re-potting. :)
 

Herman

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2014, 02:32 AM »
Hello Judy :),

thank you for the compliment ;D. the reason i want to re-pot is because i have found a lot of current year needles browning from the tips inward, ps I could find no sign of any fungus, and the fact that the tree seem to be unstable in the soil. This gave me the idea of root problems? the soil drains extremely slow, about a minute and it only drains through the bottom holes after the second watering. I have loosened the top soil and this helped some with the draining. Currently i only water the tree every three to four days. I also want to repot because it has happened to me that i worked on a Mugo in bad soil(this was early winter, and only comprised of light wiring and light thinning out) the tree budded as normal in spring, but i refrained from repotting it because i didn't want to delay its training for a year because of repotting, and i found a lot of good info on bnut by Vance Wood, planned to do the summer work, it kicked the bucket on me due to root rot because of a lot of rain....will it not be better then to forestall any hard work on the tree to get it into better soil first, get this out of the way, before i start working on it?

Hello Dan :)

glad to meet you.

I dont think it is akadama, purely for the reason that this tree came from china, which means that it was commercially grown amongst another thousand white pines. it seems unlikely that they would import akadama from Japan to use on their commercial stock on such a large scale. But then again you may be right, since i dont have a clue what akadama looks like. What i can say is that the soil in this white pine's pot is dark burgundy red underneath the surface , grey on top of the surface, very fine and compacts very easily.

I also emailed Michael Hagedorn(what an awesome guy!!!) to ask advice and he seemed to suggest that I can repot in spring if i wanted to, he didn't lean very strong in any direction. he did however give a lot of tips on cultivation and care. I think it is difficult to establish what a tree needs from photos

Best regards
Herman
 

Don Blackmond

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2014, 08:11 AM »
it looks like field dirt.  typical of the trees shipped from china.  make do until you can repot it.  the challenge you have is getting all the roots wet but not allowing them to stay soggy.  slip-potting is fine but watch that your water does not run off/over the bad soil and down through the added good soil.  you need water to penetrate the old soil to reach the roots, but the path of least resistance will be the good soil surrounding the bad soil.

it looks like you have your trees under a roof.  do you keep them in the sun some time during the day?
 

Herman

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2014, 08:48 AM »
Hello Don,

thanks for the reply

I also think it is field soil, thanks for the advice. to answer your question:

No i dont keep my trees under a roof, those are my wife's japanese maples with the odd azalea in between, i'm only putting up a bonsai area under shade cloth later, the maples will go under 50% shade cloth. they stay under the "stoep" veranda i think you will know it by, because our african sun will bake them a bit. they do get an hour or so of morning sun. except for those all my other trees get a full day's direct sunlight, oh yes,,,except also for this white pine and a shimpaku  bonsai and itoigawa cutting, that only gets sun until 3 hours after mid day, this will also change, most of the others will go underneath 25-30% shade cloth, except for the wild olives and black pine

best regards
Herman

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 08:51 AM by Herman »
 

Judy

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2014, 01:46 PM »
It does sound like you need to repot.  I would suggest that you don't do any other work until it is recovered, as you'll probably have to do extensive rootwork to free it from that soil.  I have had good luck with compacted trees by soaking first in a tub, then swirling.  Also I tend to use a sharp spray from a hose instead of trying to rake.  The water will be more gentle than tearing at the roots. 
You may need more than one season to do the whole thing, but if it's soft enough maybe not.
You will probably have to wait another year before styling...

Also I've found that in the very hot parts of summer, that mine prefer partial shade conditions more than full sun. And they are thirsty in the heat as well.
 

Herman

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 03:30 AM »
Hi Judy,

I have been very vigilant controlling it's water, if it rains i get the pine under a roof before it starts raining. it only gets water when the soil is almost dry. This seems to have halted the needle die-back. Guess i have a plan now....

I will remove all the field soil over a couple of repottings by bare rooting only a part of the root ball at one time, get the tree strong and very healthy and then work on it. I will not wire it until it is happy,strong and established in a better soil mix. I can maybe manage to build some density in the lower branches? Energy balancing through bud selection and candle pinching?

Can I give the tree fish emulsion from early summer to autumn? I've read somewhere that white pines go lanky when fertilized like a black pine, in other words; from before buds start moving until dormancy.

Thanks for all the help

ps. You mentioned when it gets warm you place it in semi shade, this is when it gets how hot? I will have to compensate for this.

Best regards
Herman
 

Judy

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 08:12 AM »
Herman, there are far better folks to tell you the ways to develop JWP, I only know what I've done and how it works for me, so keep that in mind.  
I do fertilize earlier in the year, but I fertilize with a mild fertilizer at that time.  Just a low dose each watering of the Dyna-gro product, it's a liquid I add when I water.  I do feed stronger at other times except in the very hot part of summer, which for me can be in the 90'sF, at which point I place it in a semi shade spot.  I think that fertilizing heavier in the spring can be beneficial if you are still in the development phase, as you'll get more growth, longer needles too, but that shouldn't matter if your goal is to grow the tree.
Honestly, it sounds like you could water a bit more, mine don't like having water withheld, but I know yours in in chancy soil right now... I had one of these that was in soil from China once, it's one of the only trees I've ever lost. For me it was the combination of cold and wet that did it in, not just the wet part. I didn't have any problems with it during the warm season.  Warm and wet seems to not be as much an issue.  Shame....  
 

Herman

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Re: white pine care
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 02:54 AM »
Judy, right now you are posting advice, not someone else, plus you seem to have more experience than me, even if you are not an expert yet, any advice is valuable :)

If it makes you feel better, I did email Michael Hagedorn earlier this morning....night for you guys(depending where i guess), he will reply soon I'm sure.

I am replying from my work computer, so I am not able to upload photos, i have to do it from my phone, something is going wrong for this poor pine...shame indeed... i took pics and will post them later, the needles are drying out white and then dropping off on a very small scale, so far its been 15 needles. I'm very concerned though, as i know with pines that if symptoms show up it's usually game .... over....

i think it may be the alkalinity of the water im using to water it? although my black pines seem fine with it... i gave a very weak dose of acid loving plant fertilizer(to drop the ph within the soil a bit) about two weeks ago? or it is the heat... i dont know....  ??? too much water or too little? usually it shows a problem with the roots not transporting water to the leaves?
I let slip and left the tree in the rain for a few days whilst i had other things drawing my attention away. think it was three days that it rained continuously? might be the wind injuring those needles? the wind was strong(38 to 50 knots) at about 3 in the morning

best thing is to keep calm ...

best regards
Herman