Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => White Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Herman on December 18, 2013, 02:00 AM

Title: white pine care
Post by: Herman on December 18, 2013, 02:00 AM
Hello Guys,

It's been a while since I've posted on this forum, since I've found a quick minute to post a new thread I want to know a few things about white pines. I'm busy Buying a nice grafted one on the 27th as a xmass prezzie for myself :o ;D

it was imported from china, hence it is in horrible fine compacted red loam. can I repot it this autumn after I have established how much of it's roots fill the pot. I know it's a risk to repot pines if they have recently been repotted, but I want to get it out of that horrible soil ASAP.

as to it's care, how much do I water it? the same as a normal black pine? or do I have to water it even less? don't think in terms of soil....say we have a normal black pine and a white pine on black pine root stock...they are in identical soils, do i water both of them the same frequency and amount?

I will upload photos of this bad boy once i have it in my possession

thanks in advance
best regards

Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Sorce on December 19, 2013, 06:32 AM
Hey Herman,

   Sounds like the soil is bad enough to risk a repot.

I'm no pine guy though, just figured to say high cause I recognize you from

   All the old posts I've read.

Welcome back. Id love to see your S.Africa addition to "the weather outside is chilly"

Sorce
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on December 19, 2013, 10:43 PM
In your hot summers, you're going to have to put it under 30% shade cloth.  JWP are mountain trees, where it is cooler.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on December 20, 2013, 08:10 AM
Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies  :)

@ Adair - hello again :D, yes i will be keeping it under shade net, as i will my shimpaku's, the african sun seem to be too hard on them, any suggestions as to my repotting question? the winters go down to -4 celcius, the coldest recorded temp being -7 celcius. Albeit the summers arent as hot as they are in Vanderbijl park, our hottest seems to be 36, as apposed to the 47 of vanderbijl park... it also rains a LOT!!! it has been raining hard every second day...the reason i want to get the pine into better soil..ps ive found pumice!!!! will be incorperating it into my current free draining soil mix

@hehehe its early summer here Sorce, our autumn starts around middle to end of march. I've moved to another climate so it may or may not be a shorter or longer growing season, usually an avg of 6.5 month long. Thanks for the warm welcome!

I can't wait to go pick up this bad boy!!!

ps, i will not be online until after the 26, so Happy Christmass to everyone. if you guys are going to be on the road, may God keep you safe in his hands and bring you to your destination in one piece(alive and well) !

Best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: John Kirby on December 20, 2013, 06:24 PM
Herman,
It should do fine with afternoon shade. It will burn a good deal less water, needs a bit less fertilizer, and I wiuld not repot until winter. You can slip pot the tree up into coarser soil for the summer and then repot later when it starts to move in late winter/spring. Good luck.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 15, 2014, 12:44 AM
Thought I'd at least update this thread with 4 photos of the tree. Only thing ive been doing is watering it and looking at it. I like the base of the tree and the branch placement. If I repot it this coming spring, can I wire it this autumn? Im asking because I think they are not as strong as black pines.

Thanks to all for the advice. It is much appreciated as always

Now I have to impatiently, patiently bid my time until I can wire it for the first time

1st pic is of the current front

Regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Judy on January 15, 2014, 07:46 AM
Nice tree Herman, I like it very much.  Only question I have is if it really needs repotting, or if you just want to repot for other reasons.  I have found that if I want to do work on them, it's better not to repot.  And actually better not to repot unless it actually needs it.  They don't mind being a bit rootbound, just as long as the water can penetrate the rootball.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Dan W. on January 15, 2014, 01:17 PM
Does the "horrible red loam" happen to be akadama?

I only ask because akadama is supposed to break down. The tree looks nice and healthy to me. Is it draining out the bottom when you water? If it is akadama and it's formed a "cake" around the rootball then you just need to shave some off the ends and underneath, tease out the roots, and then place a coarse mixture of akadama and pumice or something similar around to fill in the space. -- And that's only if it actually needs re-potting. :)
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 16, 2014, 02:32 AM
Hello Judy :),

thank you for the compliment ;D. the reason i want to re-pot is because i have found a lot of current year needles browning from the tips inward, ps I could find no sign of any fungus, and the fact that the tree seem to be unstable in the soil. This gave me the idea of root problems? the soil drains extremely slow, about a minute and it only drains through the bottom holes after the second watering. I have loosened the top soil and this helped some with the draining. Currently i only water the tree every three to four days. I also want to repot because it has happened to me that i worked on a Mugo in bad soil(this was early winter, and only comprised of light wiring and light thinning out) the tree budded as normal in spring, but i refrained from repotting it because i didn't want to delay its training for a year because of repotting, and i found a lot of good info on bnut by Vance Wood, planned to do the summer work, it kicked the bucket on me due to root rot because of a lot of rain....will it not be better then to forestall any hard work on the tree to get it into better soil first, get this out of the way, before i start working on it?

Hello Dan :)

glad to meet you.

I dont think it is akadama, purely for the reason that this tree came from china, which means that it was commercially grown amongst another thousand white pines. it seems unlikely that they would import akadama from Japan to use on their commercial stock on such a large scale. But then again you may be right, since i dont have a clue what akadama looks like. What i can say is that the soil in this white pine's pot is dark burgundy red underneath the surface , grey on top of the surface, very fine and compacts very easily.

I also emailed Michael Hagedorn(what an awesome guy!!!) to ask advice and he seemed to suggest that I can repot in spring if i wanted to, he didn't lean very strong in any direction. he did however give a lot of tips on cultivation and care. I think it is difficult to establish what a tree needs from photos

Best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Don Blackmond on January 16, 2014, 08:11 AM
it looks like field dirt.  typical of the trees shipped from china.  make do until you can repot it.  the challenge you have is getting all the roots wet but not allowing them to stay soggy.  slip-potting is fine but watch that your water does not run off/over the bad soil and down through the added good soil.  you need water to penetrate the old soil to reach the roots, but the path of least resistance will be the good soil surrounding the bad soil.

it looks like you have your trees under a roof.  do you keep them in the sun some time during the day?
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 16, 2014, 08:48 AM
Hello Don,

thanks for the reply

I also think it is field soil, thanks for the advice. to answer your question:

No i dont keep my trees under a roof, those are my wife's japanese maples with the odd azalea in between, i'm only putting up a bonsai area under shade cloth later, the maples will go under 50% shade cloth. they stay under the "stoep" veranda i think you will know it by, because our african sun will bake them a bit. they do get an hour or so of morning sun. except for those all my other trees get a full day's direct sunlight, oh yes,,,except also for this white pine and a shimpaku  bonsai and itoigawa cutting, that only gets sun until 3 hours after mid day, this will also change, most of the others will go underneath 25-30% shade cloth, except for the wild olives and black pine

best regards
Herman

Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Judy on January 16, 2014, 01:46 PM
It does sound like you need to repot.  I would suggest that you don't do any other work until it is recovered, as you'll probably have to do extensive rootwork to free it from that soil.  I have had good luck with compacted trees by soaking first in a tub, then swirling.  Also I tend to use a sharp spray from a hose instead of trying to rake.  The water will be more gentle than tearing at the roots. 
You may need more than one season to do the whole thing, but if it's soft enough maybe not.
You will probably have to wait another year before styling...

Also I've found that in the very hot parts of summer, that mine prefer partial shade conditions more than full sun. And they are thirsty in the heat as well.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 21, 2014, 03:30 AM
Hi Judy,

I have been very vigilant controlling it's water, if it rains i get the pine under a roof before it starts raining. it only gets water when the soil is almost dry. This seems to have halted the needle die-back. Guess i have a plan now....

I will remove all the field soil over a couple of repottings by bare rooting only a part of the root ball at one time, get the tree strong and very healthy and then work on it. I will not wire it until it is happy,strong and established in a better soil mix. I can maybe manage to build some density in the lower branches? Energy balancing through bud selection and candle pinching?

Can I give the tree fish emulsion from early summer to autumn? I've read somewhere that white pines go lanky when fertilized like a black pine, in other words; from before buds start moving until dormancy.

Thanks for all the help

ps. You mentioned when it gets warm you place it in semi shade, this is when it gets how hot? I will have to compensate for this.

Best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Judy on January 21, 2014, 08:12 AM
Herman, there are far better folks to tell you the ways to develop JWP, I only know what I've done and how it works for me, so keep that in mind.  
I do fertilize earlier in the year, but I fertilize with a mild fertilizer at that time.  Just a low dose each watering of the Dyna-gro product, it's a liquid I add when I water.  I do feed stronger at other times except in the very hot part of summer, which for me can be in the 90'sF, at which point I place it in a semi shade spot.  I think that fertilizing heavier in the spring can be beneficial if you are still in the development phase, as you'll get more growth, longer needles too, but that shouldn't matter if your goal is to grow the tree.
Honestly, it sounds like you could water a bit more, mine don't like having water withheld, but I know yours in in chancy soil right now... I had one of these that was in soil from China once, it's one of the only trees I've ever lost. For me it was the combination of cold and wet that did it in, not just the wet part. I didn't have any problems with it during the warm season.  Warm and wet seems to not be as much an issue.  Shame....  
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 22, 2014, 02:54 AM
Judy, right now you are posting advice, not someone else, plus you seem to have more experience than me, even if you are not an expert yet, any advice is valuable :)

If it makes you feel better, I did email Michael Hagedorn earlier this morning....night for you guys(depending where i guess), he will reply soon I'm sure.

I am replying from my work computer, so I am not able to upload photos, i have to do it from my phone, something is going wrong for this poor pine...shame indeed... i took pics and will post them later, the needles are drying out white and then dropping off on a very small scale, so far its been 15 needles. I'm very concerned though, as i know with pines that if symptoms show up it's usually game .... over....

i think it may be the alkalinity of the water im using to water it? although my black pines seem fine with it... i gave a very weak dose of acid loving plant fertilizer(to drop the ph within the soil a bit) about two weeks ago? or it is the heat... i dont know....  ??? too much water or too little? usually it shows a problem with the roots not transporting water to the leaves?
I let slip and left the tree in the rain for a few days whilst i had other things drawing my attention away. think it was three days that it rained continuously? might be the wind injuring those needles? the wind was strong(38 to 50 knots) at about 3 in the morning

best thing is to keep calm ...

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 22, 2014, 04:30 AM
Second pic is what I believe to be over watering problems it had at the nursery I baught it from. Third pic is needles going white and drying up on the tree and the rest is of dropped white dried up needles
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 22, 2014, 09:26 AM
There is a detailed video on youtube that may help. Search "white pines" by golden state bonsai federation.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: John Kirby on January 22, 2014, 12:29 PM
Herman,

A good friend, who is from Russia, told me to be nicer and not so gruff with you, so I will try.

You are in mid summer now, and the tree has has buds that extended in to candles and the needles are starting to mature. Correct? The tree looks line it has three years of needles on it, maybe some 4 year needles. These older needles will die and the three and four year needles should be removed as they die, many will start to turn yellow and drop in late February to April in your hemisphere. The tree can be fertilized now, not heavily because of the soil, but fertilized nonetheless. At this stage, you really don't care about needle length or leggy growth, you want to feed to strengthen your buds and to make adventitious buds stronger. When the tree is more refined, then you worry about needles and growth.

Make sense? The big thing is to keep doing what you have been doing, don't let the tree get bone dry, don't let it stay waterlogged. It is on Japanese Black Pine roots, it will bounce back after repotting.

Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Chrisl on January 22, 2014, 06:21 PM
Damn Nice John!  ;D
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 22, 2014, 06:45 PM
John basically summarized the video that I recommended. It happens to me every fall. Maybe it varies with climate.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: John Kirby on January 22, 2014, 10:18 PM
Engineer, he is in the Southern Hemisphere, so he is 6 months off cycle with us. So Late August to October in North becomes late February to April in the South.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 23, 2014, 12:54 AM
Herman,

A good friend, who is from Russia, told me to be nicer and not so gruff with you, so I will try.

Make sense? The big thing is to keep doing what you have been doing, don't let the tree get bone dry, don't let it stay waterlogged. It is on Japanese Black Pine roots, it will bounce back after repotting.



"gruff"? Never took you for being "gruff" with me Mr Kirby, i was of opinion you were being factual... Thank you for the advice.

repot in spring or this autumn?

Regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: John Kirby on January 23, 2014, 08:31 AM
I tend to repot everything in the winter/spring now, though there are those who quite successfully transplant in the fall, Late February to late March in your area. Since I repot in the late winter-spring, I would suggest if you want to do fall repotting that someone Like Owen, Bill Valvanis or Boon might chime in, not sure who of the really experienced white pine people does this. The one thing I would suggest though, is that you will probably need to bareroot 1/3-1/2 of the rootball, while eliminating circling roots and some off off the bottom on the remainder, I would suggest protecting from freezing if you repot in the fall until July-August to get the tree growing strong next year. 
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: augustine on January 23, 2014, 09:04 AM
Hi Herman,

I like your tree very much. Have a question about your region, trying to understand the level of heat. Do mugo pines successfully grow in local landscapes?

Best of Luck,

Augustine
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 23, 2014, 09:15 AM
The ideal would be late winter, early spring, around late august early september, but im afraid of going into winter with this field soil this tree is standing in....March is a good time of the year for repotting here, but i only have experience in repotting indigenous deciduous and tropical trees at this time

I will wait for advice(from those mentioned on autumn repotting) before i decide what to do, thank you Mr Kirby

regards
Herman

 

Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 23, 2014, 09:24 AM
Hi Herman,

I like your tree very much. Have a question about your region, trying to understand the level of heat. Do mugo pines successfully grow in local landscapes?

Best of Luck,

Augustine

I had a mugo that did well underneath 30% shade, but i lost it due to bad soil and overwatering in winter... i've moved to a milder area now, hottest is 32-36 celcius, coldest -3 - -6 celcius. I bought the Mugo from capetown, it never goes below 2 celcius there and the summers are extremely hot, way hotter than where i lived previously. they raised the mugo from seed...

don't worry, it will have a dormancy period over winter .

thanks for the compliment

regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on January 27, 2014, 12:03 AM
Should I start e new thread on autumn repotting of white pines to get a reaction?
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on February 05, 2014, 01:18 AM
It's backbudding, I take this as a sign of health and recovery

Herman

Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: John Kirby on February 05, 2014, 05:27 AM
Good news on the budding. I think a new thread on fall repotting on white pines could be interesting. You might get some good input. I havent done it myself.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Owen Reich on February 05, 2014, 09:09 AM
Herman,

Repotting for Japanese White Pine can be done at two main times (according to my experience in Japan).  I will explain when things are done in Japan, and you can adapt your timeframe.  The first is early Spring before the candles start to extend.  This is also the repotting time for most other trees.  Go by the tree's behavior; not a calendar.  The second timeframe is late summer.  This is August in Japan.  There is a period after the candles harden but before Fall where there is a "stall" in the tree's growth.  Repotting at this time is also possible, but hard to define in words.  Again, go by the tree, not a calendar.  Repotting at this time should not be as intense and primarily for light soil and root removal.  We use this repotting time to change the angles on trees or put into a nicer container for Fall and Winter exhibitions.

I would advise early Spring as your climate may be too intense during the summer.  Frankly, I'm not sure how well a Pinus parviflora will do in South Africa.  I have friends in Florida who buy cheap ones to see what will happen and they generally last a few years, then croak.  I think this is a combination of intense humidity and lack of cool period.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on February 06, 2014, 08:36 AM


Thank you for the reply Owen, much appreciated. I will follow your advice and re-pot this tree first thing in spring just before the buds start to move, I think the tree has shown that it will be able to go through winter with my current watering regime

haha, what is your perception of the weather in South Africa? There is great variation...

The region I live in, can be called temperate rather than tropical or sub-tropical,  and my weather campares very closely to Aichien’s avg temperatures(aka Nagoya Japan), except they have it more humid in summer, and it gets colder by me in winter. same for the Saitama district, and Omiya, where many excelent japanese white pines come from

aka I did my homework before I bought the tree, as it was very expensive...

Regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Owen Reich on February 06, 2014, 08:55 PM
Good to know.  My knowledge of South Africa is limited to the desert species native to there and Namibia.  It will be interesting to see how it fares.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2014, 01:55 AM
Hi Owen,

talking about the thorn trees I suppose, I will be starting some new threads soon about some indigenous trees I'm working on, maybe you can chime in there too. Don't know if those threads will enjoy much attention, because there won't be much relevance to posting species most of the people on here will never see, let alone work on...

This is why i have only posted species relevant to this forum,

I will keep this thread updated.

regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Owen Reich on February 07, 2014, 10:10 PM
Please post stuff from down there.  Everyone should post more including me.  I was referring mainly to the desert flowering plants; Scilla natalensis and the like.  Did my senior thesis on that one.  Only problem is it's poisonous as hell to animals.....
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on February 10, 2014, 09:30 AM
okay, will do Owen :)
I've got quite a few thorn trees that i can post ;D

on a side note:

you are speaking of the "blou slangkop", it's our common name for this plant. I've only ever seen the white one; had to dig them out of the "veld" on my grandfathers farm(ranch), since he was buying in cattle from a region without these and the new cattle, not knowing to avoid these, would eat them and become poisoned. Cattle die within three days of eating this plant...looks really painfull.. ps direct translation of the name to english is "blue snake head", it refers to how the whole flower resembles a snake's head before the individual flowers open up.

regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on March 26, 2014, 03:47 AM
so now the terminal buds have new green buds forming from their tips. on some terminal buds there are four new buds! and even more back buds are forming, it looks like it is slowing down a bit as the night time temps are starting to dive and the deciduous trees in the garden are just starting to paint their leaves yellow and red ;D this should mean that the tree has recovered fast from the mal treatment it received at the nursery i bought it from. I think these new buds will have ample time to mature before winter fully kicks in. it looks exactly the same, so no photo  :P

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on March 27, 2014, 07:44 AM
Next year, those terminal tips that have four buds will need to be reduced to two.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Gaffer on March 27, 2014, 08:40 PM
A little change in direction.
White pine seedlings. Are they treated the same as black pine seedlings in that is the seedling root cropped. I have three up already along with about seven reds. Are blacks always slower or has some bug got in. I have none up so far. All planted in the same seed bed, same situation .
A little help
Thank you
Qualicum Brian
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on March 28, 2014, 01:56 AM
Next year, those terminal tips that have four buds will need to be reduced to two.

Next spring or next fall? thanks for the tip, will do it

regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on March 28, 2014, 10:09 AM
Herman,

Are they just buds?  Tight little nubs that will become candles?  Or have they grown and have needles?  If just buds, leave them be for now.  Wait 'till late spring or summer so you see what's growing, and what direction you want the branch to grow, or wire it out to, and pick twigs accordingly.

Remember with white pine, you only get one flush of growth per year.  No decandling.  Usually, we only get one or two active tips to work with, so if you have a choice, that's great!

Very often, with white pine, there's no need to pinch the candles back, because they grow so slowly.  Sometimes, you may get really strong candles that overgrow the design, so you can pinch those back before they've hardened off.   We call that 'candle breaking'.  Be sure to leave needles on any pinched candle.

Fertilizer?  Usually not in the spring.  Wait until the candles and needles have hardened off in early summer.  Then start to apply fertilizer.  This keeps the tufts of needles tight.  Fertilizing too soon causes the twigs to get 'leggy'.  (Unless you are really pushing for growth.  If you are, then fertilize in spring to encourage as much growth as possible.)
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on March 31, 2014, 02:28 AM
Theyre just buds Adair, I will take a pic for you, so you can see what I'm talking about. no new needles, just a lot of new buds forming on the tips of mature buds(buds that will grow into candles then shoots next spring). I think these mature buds were already mature when i bought the tree. they havent pushed needles at all, just formed a set of new buds from their tips. these new buds havent pushed into candles either. I think this is because of the timing difference of the seasons between China and South Africa. Because the tree now had an extended growing season it set another round of buds that will start elongating into candles this coming spring. Ive seen black pines do it here in the fall as well

I bought myself the master pine book last year, for the jbp section. Since I bought this tree I've been studying the jwp section as well

regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on March 31, 2014, 11:37 AM
Then there's nothing to do until they sprout next spring.

If the tree is strong you can wire and style in the late fall.  Perhaps cut off old needles, keeping this year's.  We don't pull needles on JWP.  Cut them off super short, and the nubs will fall off.  Often the old needles will yellow, start to brown, and they just fall off with a gentle touch.  That's ok, too.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on April 01, 2014, 03:11 AM
I see two potential pitfalls

1: I don't know when this tree was potted up or repotted last. so I don't know in what condition the roots are in, to repot this coming spring may be a gamble if it was dug up and potted up or repotted last year in china.
2: The soil it is in is holding way too much water, I was watering it once every 4 days in the middle of summer, and I'm watering it once a week now in early autumn

I really want to get it out of the mix it is in atm, so I consulted a pro, and he told me to leave it be for one full growing season, just pinching overly long candles shorter, and watching the water, also giving it a low nitrogen fertilizer now and next autumn will help the roots. spring after i can repot it by bare rooting half the rootball. will prob style it for the first time that following autumn, its a three year plan :o

I think the long term plan will be better for the health of the tree? I really want to get in there and style it, but Im cautious of losing this tree

thanks for the advice Adair, always appreciated


regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on April 29, 2014, 08:53 AM
Herman,

I agree with the long term plan.  My experience with JWP is they are more delicate than JBP, so taking the conservative rather than aggressive approach is appropriate.

I hope you're doing well.

Adair
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on April 29, 2014, 09:26 AM
Hi Adair :)

I'm Awesome except for our dreaded national elections coming up...people tend to behave in a primal fashion during these...and its a bit stressfull with the landlord not fixing my front gate...not much sleep for me until the commotion blows over :-\

I'm ITCHING to wire this pine, but I know it will be better to be conservative  :-X. I can report that all the backbuds has stopped growing and took on a nice red brownish hue, guess this means they have matured and will push out into candles this coming spring. Let's hope it gets all the rest it needs(dormancy). will have a place under 30% shade next summer so it can get out of the heat, I may have to trim the apex a bit, it seems very dense and strong compared to the rest of the tree. can i maybe cut some needles on top to thin it out and reduce vigor?

hope you fare well too :)

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on April 29, 2014, 01:11 PM
Herman,


You're entering winter, right?  Have the old, two year old needles begun to drop off?  They usually dry up and fall off at the slightest touch.  Once that happens, the tree is essentially dormant.  Good time to wire and style.  You can also trim back other needles at that time if you need to open it up to allow sunlight inside.  This will help stimulate backbudding.

Quite frankly, I'm amazed you're able to keep JWP at all.  With the summer heat and all.

Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on April 30, 2014, 02:25 AM
haha I'm not in the clear yet Adair, but it looks promising because the tree will have a dormancy, right? old needles have been dropping since middle march yes, I actually thought the tree was going to kick the bucket, not being used to seeing a white pine do this, because I thought that maybe I watered it too much or too little...yes winter is coming, had our first frosts yesterday morning, and it will continue to frost every morning until spring comes in September. The frost will just increase in severety as we go along.

I have a theory about the heat tolerance; I have tried to establish in which part of china this tree was grown, though generally China has very hot summers. some parts going wel over the 100 farenheit mark. Maybe this tree is used to extreme heat in summer? the fact that it was grafted to black pine roots also gives the tree as a whole more tolerance to heat? maybe also this "horible" soil mix keeps enough water to keep the soil cool enough for our hot days? ive measured the temps in the soil at mid day and it was a lot cooler than the ambient temps outside of the pot and the surface temps around it

but the need for cool roots will be managed by the shade net I'm putting up. how much sun does a dormant white pine need to bud out nicely in spring? I may have to move this tree to the cold southern side that doesnt get much sun and stays rather cold during the day. We still have our warm winter days of 25 celcius

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on May 08, 2014, 02:30 AM
Hi guys,

I've decided to wire this pine out, I know I wanted to repot before I start styling. But I kinda checked the roots, and it seems the tree was potted up last year. Since the tree is strong with nice buds and I am not going to repot it this coming spring, I might just as well start the wiring process.

I will update with pics once I'm finished.

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on May 12, 2014, 03:33 AM
An update,


Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Judy on May 12, 2014, 08:43 AM
Looks pretty good Herman, too bad it's determined to be sideways... :D
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: izk_zero on May 12, 2014, 11:41 PM
Very nice tree Herman. I rotated the images.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on May 13, 2014, 02:07 AM
Looks pretty good Herman, too bad it's determined to be sideways... :D

Hi Judy :),

Thanks for the compliment. o wei hahaha, it kept falling over after I fed it beer to get those thick branches nice and supple :o  ;D :P

Very nice tree Herman. I rotated the images.


Thanks Zero for the compliment and sobering up my pine hahahaha...



On a seriouos note though, do you guys think I can improve the pads I've wired out by making them wider and/or flatter. Maybe some other suggestions? Any advice and comments welcome

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on June 12, 2014, 05:13 AM
Hi guys,

Early this morning I noticed something on my white pine. There are two branches coming from the same branch that has 1 - 1.5 cm long needles and 9 small buds on each. What could this be?

Will upload photos shortly of a normal branch tip and these odd branch tips

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on June 12, 2014, 05:16 AM
1st pic is of a nomal shoot and the 2nd is of the weird shoot

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on June 12, 2014, 06:52 AM
Herman,

Very nice. From the rotated pictures I like the third one down from the top. The movement is very well expressed in that position. I'm not sure what that could be. It sounds like your not in spring so it's not pollen sacks. Hopefully the others here can help.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on June 12, 2014, 08:51 AM
Thnx Engineer :)

those are buds, and a lot of them on one shoot ???

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on June 12, 2014, 03:03 PM
Looks like back budding, Herman.

On a previous post, you asked if you should make your pads flatter, etc.

Detail wiring and styling is very difficult to describe in words.  I will make an attempt:

Every twig should be wired.  Branches should be pruned and trained so that there is a central leader, and alternating left and right branches coming off the central leader.  Too often, the novice (including myself) left too many branches coming off at one spot.  This makes for a fan shaped branch.  Not what we want in an ideal world.  We want triangular shaped branches when they are viewed from above.  That's step one.

Then, wire everything.  Out to the base of the terminal bud.  Then, when styling, we want the bottoms of the pads to be flat.  Style the branch at eye level.  You should, on pines, see a little of the wood under the pad.  Each bud should have it's own space.  Two (or more) buds should not appear to be fighting for control of the space.  Either spread them out a little, or remove one.  The buds should be wired so that the terminal bud is tilted up at about a 45 degree angle.  All at the same angle.  Not straight out, and not straight up.

Remember what I said about alternating branches?  Add to that, there should be some top secondary branches.  These are wired to follow the main branch line.  The terminal tips are turned up at the same angle as the terminals.  These give height and depth to the pads.  Eventually, several years from now, you will cut back to these to replace the existing terminal branches as they will inevitably grow too long.

See my thread, "Intensive Work".  Boon and I worked on refining the pads, doing exactly what I just tried to describe.  Look at the photos I took from above.  You should be able to see some top branches.  (It's tough to see in 2D.  If you were with the tree, you'd be able to see them quite clearly.)

Good luck!
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on July 03, 2014, 04:23 AM
Hi Adair,

Thanks for the info, I like that you've teached me another way of creating branch pads. I will use this method and add it to the others I have learned. Don't worry you've explained it quite well :) I think this pine still looks rough because i didn't have enough twigs to do any convincing fine detail wiring on some branches. I hope to get better detail out of the tree the next time I wire it. I might not wire it next autumn so that i can repot it into a better mix the spring after

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on July 03, 2014, 09:41 AM
Yes, white pines grow slowly.  The do back bud, but only reluctantly.  To create the look of full pads, it takes skillful wiring.

If you view the video series "The Bonsai Art of Japan" on YouTube, several episodes will show wiring/styling techniques for white pine.  If you notice, they try to use every bud tip.  On Black Pine, it's more common to cut back because eventually you'll get back budding which is used to create nice pads.

I have noticed that even nice JWP tend to be "hollow" on the inside.  That is, they'll have beautiful silhouettes, but have little interior foliage. 

You know that "dome" style apex that most JWP feature?  It really blocks the sun from the interior of the tree.  But that's just the way JWP grow.

Different from JBP.  JBP apexes tend to be "pointier" than JWP.  More vigorous tree.  And since they are more vertical, they let more light in to the trunk.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on July 04, 2014, 06:10 AM
I had a question, those clusters of 7 to 9 buds on a very short shoot, you sure its backbudding adair? I've inspected it and another friends white pine and his does not have any shoots with as many buds on them. I tried finding the terminal buds on that shoot and realised something; those tight clusters of buds are what once was the terminal bud. I found a two year old shoot below that cluster with normal length needles(quite a strong shoot with a lot of needles) then above these needles is this cluster with tiny buds and super short needles. might it be a witches broom?

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Adair M on July 04, 2014, 10:07 AM
Well, I said it looked like back budding. I guess you'll just have to wait and see what happens!
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2014, 05:15 AM
guess so, the tree is still firmly asleep :) , expecting another cold front this week, after that I expect I might see this tree waking up slowly

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on August 06, 2014, 08:18 AM
sure is slow to wake up...my dwarf elms and cork bark elms have woken up but my pines seems to have decided to sleep late this year...

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Sorce on August 07, 2014, 04:54 AM
A funky year for earth!

Months early spring in Europe. Months late in US. Sleepy Pines in Africa.

 ???
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on August 07, 2014, 06:02 AM
hahahaha

hello dude

our astrological spring is 1st  of September, but my bonsai have always started moving up to a month earlier...its almost middle august and the buds aren't even showing a bit of green yet...last year this time they were 2-2 1/2 inch candles already...sssssslooooooooowwwwwww or I'm impatient because a lot of my black pines will be de-candled this summer for the first time

since I don't believe in global warming, I believe we are in a 30 year weather cycle....
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on August 12, 2014, 05:54 AM
This one is still sleeping. ....

Here's a angle that I've grown particularly fond of as it's the angle that greats me when I come home from work :-D

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Sorce on August 12, 2014, 06:43 AM
I too like this angle . ;D

I would like to see you get that first tuft of foilage that covers the trunk, from the little front branch I believe, to cover the left branch above it with the white wire. Just near the trunk.

1. To expose that nice trunk. :o

2. To hide that bar branch. ( I hate when "rules" ring true)

3. To rid the eye of thinking the first set of branches is Tbar, when in fact it is not. Right?

I really like this tree. But it keeps telling me not to. (Don't know why.) I don't want to agree with it. I think you can change that!  ;) I think this may help.

I hope to have added the correct smilies and subtext to not come off like an egotistical ahole who knows everything about pine design! I don't even own one.! But I did open another page to view the tree and bitch about it! Cuz i care! Hey white pine care!

I humbly think this 2 inch move will drastically improve this image.

Selfishly,

Sorce

Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Sorce on August 12, 2014, 06:52 AM
Looking back at the old images. This is my favorite front.

While the trunk base is interesting at other angles. It is more harmonious with the crown at this angle.

Are you going to jin out that low dead one?

Sorce
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on August 12, 2014, 07:31 AM
Howdy Sorce  :)

Lolol this tree is a trunk with bicycle spoke and bar branches....the only branches that arent is the first right branch and that small branch infront. I have quite literally had sleepless nights about the idea to cut off the bar branches leaving only one at a level,  that is until I inspected those whorls closely! All of those branches are at least 7 years old and there is no sign of any reverse taper. Anyhow back to your observation; that little branch will indeed be trained to obscure the origin of the tbars directly above it as I build up it's pad. I still do not know what I want to do with that cut off sacrifice branch stub, it does go against the flow...so maybe carve it out? I've read white pine heals well.

One benefit of moving that front branch and opening the trunk line below and obscuring the trunk line above will do something for the illusion of more taper? Great idea dude  ;D

View from above

Ps.... lol lol funny, no don't worry, you didn't,  even if you didn't say you hoped you didn't
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Sorce on August 12, 2014, 12:39 PM
Awesome. Kinda figured we were on that level.  :P  gotta remind everyone else!

There is no reverse taper. Thats for sure.  I see none in full grown trees either. I wonder if it is care. .....or just the individual tree. I think it is the evenly distributed growth all around at least 70% of the area, due to observations.  But???


Hurts none to see if that wanger will make a nice (if odd) jin before you cut it.
Maybe a candidate for Owens jin bending technique. It would look raw bent down.

Owen, you look scary with that torch!

Or, if you can make up a reasonable story for it, others will too!

Repost when she wakes up!

Sorce
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on November 05, 2014, 02:29 AM
This tree has been extremely slow this spring, some buds only opened up needles on their tips and some just extended but have not pushed out any needles yet.... :|

Here is a pic
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: JoesBonsai on November 05, 2014, 05:51 AM
Hi Herman,

Looking good ;) ;D WP up in JHB are always slower in Spring than BP
Here is a pic of mine very similar to yours.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: M. Frary on November 05, 2014, 02:29 PM
  My elms are always first to wake up in spring. My pines last. Thats just the way it is.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on September 16, 2015, 04:04 AM
Hello  people,

I've changed the  planting angle slightly to the left, I decided to repot the tree while the tempd are  very mild still. I used my clinker mix...
So I'm not  doing much else to this tree until I get it really strong. It looks stronger than last spring.

Two pics far and close
Pine to the left is a loblolly repotted at the same time

Best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: DorianJF on September 17, 2015, 08:13 AM
Hi Herman

Stunning trees.

I think the change in planting angle helped and I agree on getting the pine as strong as possible.  I do not have white pine but I know with black pine how fickle they can be.

Good luck.
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: Herman on September 22, 2015, 03:39 AM
Hi Dorian,

Thanks for the reply boet  :)

Looks like the white pine took the repotting in its stride.  I think it likes the open mix. Loblolly is lagging behind a bit but still looks a healthy green, even the juvenile growth on it still looks  fine.

White pines are s bit more temperamental  than black pines  when it comes to temperature and watering
Also in SA they can't be sited in full sun in summer...they kind of expire. Black pine can't get enough sun

Best regards
Herman
Title: Re: white pine care
Post by: DorianJF on September 22, 2015, 04:38 AM
Definitely agree on the Black pines not getting enough sun.  My 2 are loving being in the sun and really doing well.