Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => White Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 14, 2013, 05:07 PM

Title: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 14, 2013, 05:07 PM
I was really busy with school and now I'm finally on winter break. I never updated the forum with my Japanese white pine. I got it past winter and left it alone. During the spring I removed a few branches and transplanted. Here are before and after pictures.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Judy on December 14, 2013, 05:11 PM
Winter is a great season to wire JWP, nudge nudge.... ;) ;)
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: John Kirby on December 14, 2013, 06:57 PM
Why yes it is, here in the Northeast, September to mid-late April. Can't wait to see all the white pines wired here!
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 14, 2013, 09:22 PM
I forgot to mention that credit goes out to Judy for helping me pick this one. Actually I believe I shot some messages to John Kirby as well for his advice. Look forward to wiring! 
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 23, 2013, 12:09 PM
Did some wiring over the weekend. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Sorce on December 24, 2013, 08:05 AM
 nice .

If you get that apex nestled in. Then swap the profile of the 2nd an 3rd layers so the larger is below. Tighten the right to accentuate the movement left.  Perfect.

At least from my 2D perspective.

Sorce
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: bwaynef on December 24, 2013, 08:33 PM
I think those first 2 branches could be moved lower.  That would probably allow for the tree to be tightened up as well.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Judy on December 26, 2013, 05:23 PM
I agree with Bwanef.  And then you can lower the upper ones a bit more. The apex looks like it could shift way forward, and back toward over the trunk.  Can I ask if the main movement of the trunk is away from the viewer in your chosen front?  If it is, you may want to look at the other side, as you don't want too much away movement.
I would also suggest wiring all the way out to the tips and really use the wire to move the foliage around, back a bit on itself if need be to create more fullness closer to the trunk. Just make sure your tips at the end go upwards. 

If you have a club near you, this is one that I would strongly suggest that you get someone with experience to help you with. There is a lot more you can do with this tree, but it is going to be hard to do it with just photos and online suggestions.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 26, 2013, 09:53 PM
Unfortunately, I am out of luck! I am aware that there are a few clubs around me, but the transportation is difficult. I did attend Bonsai Society of Greater New York for one meeting, but I couldn't do more than that. I am college student, currently in junior year and school takes up a GREAT deal of time; therefore, a commitment is not within my each. I usually spend my time browsing this site periodically and watching you tube videos. I am aware of the nearby Brooklyn Botanical Gardens, which has the famous, which has an excellent bonsai museum. I did contact the curator Julian Velasco, but he informed he was unable to find an opportunity for me this past summer. I'm on break now so I tried to reach him, but no response yet. I do have visions of what I want to accomplish, but I definitely lack the technique so basically I know what I want but do not know the how to
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Judy on December 27, 2013, 04:56 PM
Well, slower if better if you are unsure.  Do you have any books on the subject?  Bonsai Today has a decent Pine book not too expensive, I have it and it's a nice overview. 
When you wire JWP think of making the pads look like a palm up hand with the fingers (branch tips) slightly upturned. but you want that graceful spreading and cupping as you move the wired branches into place.  I'm sure you've seen photos of this technique on the web, see if you can copy it with your tree.  Also you need to look at where the tree strength needs to be balanced.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 27, 2013, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Judy and bwaynef . I'll give it another try tomorrow and update with pictures. I do need help with guide wiring.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: JRob on December 27, 2013, 07:37 PM
Where are you wintering the tree and what temperatures is it seeing?
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 27, 2013, 07:50 PM
mini cold frame green house. I leave the top of the green house slightly open. My best assumption the temperature in the green house is the same as the temperature outside so I would say nyc temperature ranges- highs 20s to low 40s.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: JRob on December 27, 2013, 08:48 PM
Since the tree will see freezing temps I personally would not do any work on this tree until winter is over and temps remain above freezing. I would talk to members of your local club that have experience in your specific climate area and have them advise you when the best time is to do this type of work without damage to the tree. JRob
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 01, 2014, 02:21 PM
Made small adjustments. I got a better idea on how to guide wire. I shortened the second left branch. I would like the tree to slant to the left or right. The moment in the base of the trunk is to the right so I assume it would be better to the right, but first branch is the longest one leaning downward to the right. Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: bwaynef on January 01, 2014, 08:50 PM
Made small adjustments.
You don't have to do anything to please me, but that's a lot closer to what I was thinking when I made my previous comment.  I think you can probably get those branches down a bit further, but that's a big improvement.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 01, 2014, 11:30 PM
Thank you bwaynef! I hope its a big improvement. I tried lowering them, but the wire rips. Any suggestions to my slanting question?
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Sorce on January 02, 2014, 12:39 AM
I think this tree will be special.


 Do you see the face?
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Judy on January 02, 2014, 08:09 AM
I would still like to know if the main trunk of the tree is going away from the chosen front?  If so, then I'd like to see the other side of the tree... And you still need to get in and wire each foliage tuft and branchlet as well as the main branches so you can get the foliage to spread out, then up.  I would look for a workshop to take this tree to, I think it's going to be the best thing you can do for yourself and the tree. Even if it means waiting a while.  Just my opinion...
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: John Kirby on January 02, 2014, 08:21 PM
Judy, you are correct, we are looking at the back of the tree.

Sorce, you sure you don't live in Colorado? i was going to ask what you are smoking.....

B.Engineer, there is a lot to be gained by interacting with someone with more experience on a tree like this. If they have a BYOT at Maba in Jersey the end of April, it might be a good get away from studying for finals Afternoon to take a workshop! I have always told the students who took my classes that if you haven't kept up over the semester , there is no way they could cram it all in over the last night or weekend. I usually told them to go see a movie. A bonsai workshop would be even better.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 02, 2014, 08:56 PM
Yes Judy, the main trunk is going away from the chosen front.

John, why is that considered the back of the tree? I was lucky to get a response from someone at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens so hopefully it will be a good place to begin. I will snap more pictures for you guys. In addition, can you give me more information about the BYOT at Maba. I couldn't find anything when I searched.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Frank R. on January 02, 2014, 09:18 PM
B.Engineer I believe it is mabs... Mid Atlantic bonsai society's spring festival. It is a weekend long event with three bonsai masters. Usually one from Japan, one from uk, and one from US. There ar demos and workshops. More info can be found on there website.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Frank R. on January 02, 2014, 09:19 PM
http://midatlanticbonsai.freeservers.com/ (http://midatlanticbonsai.freeservers.com/)
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: John Kirby on January 03, 2014, 06:50 AM
Yes MABS, not the August show in Chicago.

Why is this the back of the tree? Because the tree is going away from the viewer.  Think of it as when the tree faces you it bows towards you. These little Miyajima Grafts are purpose made for bonsai. While they frequently have faulty, swollen, grafts the do have good low movement and are set up for branch selection and styling. The folks who produce these/sell these may have a range from 6-8" tall to 3' or more.

Miyajima is a very nice and hardy cultivar. If the view of the tree is an optical illusion, that the tree isn't growing away, this was Judy's question, could you show us post wiring side shits and from the opposite side from your current front? Or show them anyway .

John
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: John Kirby on January 03, 2014, 11:01 AM
Um, those would be shots, guess I need to turn autocorrect back on ........
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 04, 2014, 12:26 PM
Thank you Frank and John, I will look into it.

Here are the photos I promised
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on January 04, 2014, 12:27 PM
More photos...
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Judy on January 04, 2014, 01:00 PM
Ok great, thanks for the photos.  Yes you are indeed using the back of the tree as it was grown and intended for your front.  You'll want to re-asses the wiring that you've done so far, and maybe even think about cutting it off to start over.(except the guy wires, they are prob. ok positions)  Since you are using alum. you may be able to just re orient the bends.  Since you are keeping it outside for the winter, other than removing the wire, I think I would let it rest for the winter, as you've already done some bending.  
When you get back into the tree to wire it, you'll want to pull every branch forward and down.  Some of the branches are in great placements to help you hide the transition from the lower trunk to the top part.  And they look young enough to be flexible too.  

Now that you can look at the front of the tree, you'll have more options. However if you truly want to use the side you have picked as your front, you could take the upper section and continue the twist around to move the entire top part toward the "front".  It would be a big bend, but could work.  I do like the bark and the trunk presentation from your chosen front better, but you'd have to do that bend to make it possible to keep as the front.

 I still think this is a perfect tree for the right workshop. You'll learn so much...
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Sorce on January 05, 2014, 08:17 AM
Look closer. It looks like a mudman, with the foo man chu.

Ready for my dollface?   

I would love to live in Colorado, Rocky Mountain High collecting!

He is looking to the front right corner, quite like me. Note the dots for eyes and nose and black line of mustache

After seeing this tree from the side, it looks like the pads can be more compacted to give a tighter 3D image.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: John Kirby on January 05, 2014, 10:04 AM
Now you can say there is a face on the back of the tree, then wink.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Frank R. on January 05, 2014, 10:46 AM
I'm new to the forum so I say this with all due respect... The pic in the middle needs more refinement. I'm not sure if wiring alone can do it. Lol
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on May 10, 2014, 12:21 PM
May 2014 Update. Rereading what you guys wrote. I agree that the current back is a better front. It will be more 3 dimensional -approaching the viewer. In addition, I was considering changing the angle next time I repot. What do you guys think will be a better front. The styling was done by me this past winter.

Thanks
Nick
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on May 10, 2014, 12:21 PM
One more pic...
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Judy on May 10, 2014, 01:10 PM
I am glad that you are going to use this side.  I like the new angle idea, and now you can start to move those branches more forward to get the new front working.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Leo in NE Illinois on July 22, 2014, 11:56 AM
New front (former back) and the new angle really look MUCH better to me. Good choice. I second Judy's vote. Your tree looks nice and healthy.
Title: Re: Progress
Post by: Sorce on July 23, 2014, 05:56 AM
Nice and healthy.