Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => White Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Judy on January 14, 2013, 02:57 PM

Title: JWP2
Post by: Judy on January 14, 2013, 02:57 PM
Here is a JWP that I recently acquired from NEBG.  I've done the first thinning and wiring, it was a joy to work on.  Here are some photos before the work.  There was a bit of reduction that needed done, as there were multiple branches in some areas, and a couple bar branches to deal with.  I did try to angle the bottom right branch down with guy wire, but was largely unsuccessful.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on January 14, 2013, 03:00 PM
And some photos of after the work for this season. The tree is very healthy.

I have to add that after I took these photos, it was recommended to angle the branch tips up, which I have done, but I haven't taken another pic of it after...


Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 12:16 AM
Nice, you have two very nice grafted white pines.

You really need to get that first branch down.  Pm if you want suggestions.

John
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Adair M on January 15, 2013, 07:18 AM
Judy,

I would strongly consider and followup on John's recommendations.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on January 15, 2013, 09:26 AM
Thanks for the offer John, PM sent.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: bwaynef on January 15, 2013, 11:29 AM
If its not too much trouble, post the suggestion here.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Chrisl on January 15, 2013, 12:02 PM
Nice tree Judy!  You certainly have upped your game a bit lol  Very well done grafted too!
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 03:42 PM
OK, the first thing that you need to see is the nebari. the easiest way to make the initial change in the angle of the branch is to look at changing the planing angle, doesn't take much, that would also fix some of the issues of the top and how the top relates to the center of the base as it emerges from the soil. This might also mean shifting the front of the tree over 20-30 degrees or so the right, turning the tree to the left as it face you. So, that is a first step. It is also a fairly large branch that has a large paired (almost on same level) branch on the back and on the left. You need to anchor these branches to each other using large wire. In a perfect world a number 6 copper, but if you don't use that size copper, use the largest aluminum wire that you can- 6mm or so. The copper is best, even if you need to have strong friends come help apply it. Next step is to apply force using a fulcrum, right at the lower point of attachment of the branch to the trunk, actually yhe end of the lever will be approximately 1/2" or so from the trunk to give you clearance to move the lever. You can do this with either a heavy piece of rebar (not the thin stuff, or three pieces of thin rebar wired together one over two, or with a 1/2"" piece of iron pipe 2 feet long with holes drilled through it to hold anchoring wires, 1/2 ", 2" and 4-6" from end by trunk. Regardless, you then need to anchor a piece of copper wire (#8 or so) in the drain hole on the side of the tree with the branch you are bending. To do this, use pliers and bend an "L" shape at the end of the wire, slip the short leg of the L through the drain hole, essentially between the rootball and the pot. Once done, then bend the wire back over the bottom of the pot, then up the side and over the soil. At the end of the wire that is over the soil and below the branch, use two pairs of pliers, bend the end and form an eyelet (loop) with a couple of twists. This will serve as your guy wire anchor.

Wherever wood, pipe or rebar or wire come in contact with wood protect with rubber. So you now have your lever attached to branch, wired tightly to the branch/wire. You need to attach a guy wire through your copper loop- I would try 14 copper- so that it goes over the branch (place rubber between wire and branch)and over the lever (don't put the guy wire around the lever), cross the wire and twist with pliers until just tight.

The next step will take two people, very slowly put pressure on the end of the lever, be careful, you can put a huge amount of force on the joint. Start with a small amount of pressure and work up as needed. When the branch moves down, tighten the guy wire to hold in position. Check the top of the branch where it attaches to the trunk. It may (will?) crack and may tear a bit, this is why you limit the force you apply and go slow. Continue to add pressure with the lever, tighten the guy wire, check joint as needed until you have it at a more pleasing angle. If you will be changing the planting angle check in the context of repositioning.

When done. Make sure the guy wire is tighten, then cut the wires that hold the lever to the branch and use cut paste to seal the wound on the top of the branch.

Look forward to seeing it again.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on January 15, 2013, 04:10 PM
Wow John, thank you for all of that.  I will first take a look at that angling idea, the roots are good (better) to that side, so will work in my favor. 
I am not happy with that back bar branch, but feel the tree needs it, as I already cut off the more obvious left large branch off. 

I will read and re-read the bending till I really understand it.  When is the best time to do this type of heavy bending work on JWP's?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 04:32 PM
Judy,
You can do it now if you protect from freezing solid, or you can wait until late winter-early spring, before the tree starts to grow. It sounds complex, I am just trying to not omit any of the small details that make this work well (like the detail below)........

One other point, and this is something that you should do, on the side opposite from the big branch, cut a piece of 1x2 (or something like it) that will fit on top of the soil, between the internal edges (front to back) of the pot, an inch or so away from the base of the trunk. Using aluminum wire, wrap a couple of wires over the wood to secure it to the top of the soil and the pot- this will keep the tree from popping out of the pot if you place enough force on it to break the wires used to secure the tree in the pot. After the guy wire is set and the lever removed, you can remove this anchor assembly as well.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Chrisl on January 15, 2013, 05:38 PM
Very well explained John, and the guy wire setup, and tree secure setup, are pretty darn inventive! 

I might add only Judy that you can also make the bend some, then allow to rest for hr or so, and then continue the bending process.  I've done this and it makes a noticeable difference.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on January 15, 2013, 05:46 PM
Yes very well described. You don't happen to have any photos of this process by chance? 

Thank you Too Chrisl!
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 06:28 PM
Judy,
I being the world's most forgetful photographer, I do not. Peter Tea has a similar approach, however hi is leaving the rebar on the tree, http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rebar-basic-on-black-pine/ (http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rebar-basic-on-black-pine/) . Not something that you want to do with the tree you have (leave the rebar on).

John
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Chrisl on January 15, 2013, 06:50 PM
Judy, there was a recent article documenting this very well in Bonsai Focus...sometime last yr. 
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on January 17, 2013, 07:42 AM
Do you happen to know which issue Chrisl? 

I do have this in the cold greenhouse, and since it's on JBP roots, I keep it on the side where the roots never freeze solid.  I may wait till our very cold weather that we are to get next week is over... (so I don't freeze!)

Thanks again John.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Chrisl on January 17, 2013, 08:15 AM
Found it Judy, it's from Jan/Feb of 2012.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on August 25, 2013, 12:02 PM
Just thought I would post an update after work done on this tree.  Worked with Owen Reich on this during a workshop and then a work day after.  Thanks Owen!
I think it looks good, and the foundation for a better tree is set.

Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: bwaynef on August 25, 2013, 07:30 PM
Contrasting the first pictures you posted with the last ones, its easy to see the differences.  Can you discuss the work that was done to bring it to this stage from the previous pictures?
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on August 25, 2013, 09:08 PM
The very first pics were as I received the tree,  I did branch selection and did rough shaping and a wiring in feb.  These are the second pics.  I took the wire off in July, as it was cutting in, and I knew I wanted to take it to the workshop with Owen.  As mentioned I always wanted to lower the bottom right branch, but needed help with that.  A new front and angle was chosen during the workshop. I bought some large gauges of copper, but not ever having used copper before, I didn't know how stiff this particular wire was.  It seemed hard to me, but didn't have any comparison.   Owen was able to place ( with difficulty, because of the wire stiffness) the wire around the two lowest branches, and had me do the smaller wiring during the workshop.  The following day, he placed a guy wire, and pulled that branch down.  Then Owen detail wired and shaped the tree.  The difference is certainly striking, and I'm really pleased with the progress.  Owen makes it all look so easy, but he's easy to learn from too. :)
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Adair M on August 26, 2013, 12:34 AM
Judy,

Get some of Jim Gremel's wire. I bought some of every gauge he sells 16 gauge and larger. I didn't need any smaller gauges since I mostly do JBP and 16 is as small as I go. I have some smaller gauge wire that I occasionally use on other trees. But I find I use a lot of 16 and 14 gauge, so I bought two rolls each.

On that "other" forum, someone posted a Peter Tea blog showing the little hook used to control the tips of the buds. That little touch really makes for a professional looking wiring job.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on August 26, 2013, 08:46 AM
Thanks Adair, that is the plan.  Good to know which ones get more use! 
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Owen Reich on August 26, 2013, 04:00 PM
Once we have copper for guy wires and fine wire, the tips will be better oriented and the middle left branch shortened and dropped lower.  Judy's aluminum wiring skills noticeably improved over the course of two days  :).
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on April 26, 2014, 11:22 PM
This tree is going crazy with the pollen cones this year.  I've never in my life seen as many on one tree.  I don't know what it means or the best time to knock them off.  It's almost like it has purple flowers all over it.  I'm afraid to knock them off and damage the new growth, as it's pretty flexible right now, but they are swelling and will get them soon. Maybe I can get a quick shot tomorrow.  Anyone seen a tree with 10 or more pollen cones on each and every candle? 
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: 0soyoung on April 26, 2014, 11:40 PM
This tree is going crazy with the pollen cones this year.  I've never in my life seen as many on one tree.  I don't know what it means or the best time to knock them off.  It's almost like it has purple flowers all over it.  I'm afraid to knock them off and damage the new growth, as it's pretty flexible right now, but they are swelling and will get them soon. Maybe I can get a quick shot tomorrow.  Anyone seen a tree with 10 or more pollen cones on each and every candle? 

Yes, it seems to happen from time to time with all pines.

On another forum I read that trees do this when they feel threatened. You haven't been cussing at it, shaking it, or pointing a gun at it have you, Judy?  ???
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on April 27, 2014, 08:41 AM
No unusual treatment here, and my other JWP, that normally has moderate amounts on it, has zero this year.  Same treatment for both.  Although this tree may be due for a repot, I was holding off till next year.  It takes a bit of time to water it, but it seems plenty vigorous.  Here are some pics, and one of the new spur after I pulled the cones off, I wonder what will happen on the long bare spot the cones were. I've just never seen them crowd the candle like this.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Herman on April 29, 2014, 02:18 AM
Hi Judy :)

Maybe it is to do with when the tree was wired and the cold winter you guys were having? Might just stress the tree enough ? Pure speculation though. If the tree is vigorous it may push other buds from the base of those candles with the cones on them.

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Sorce on April 29, 2014, 04:27 AM
Hey Judy, enjoying the thaw!?

   Don't all conifers have some years of intense coning?

All the spruces by me have 3 times last years cones. Female of course, but this aint Texas!
Males would too then correct?
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on April 29, 2014, 08:17 AM
Hi Herman, Sorce,
Could be the wiring, but who knows?  I've had a couple people tell me that they have had more than normal amounts as well. 
As long as it's not harmful, and I've had them be numerous (although not to this extent) on my other JWP, and as long as I pop them off, I don't worry. 
Sorce, these are pollen cones, not pine cones.  They extend and open up and produce clouds of pollen. 
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Adair M on April 29, 2014, 08:49 AM
Judy,

The only "issue" you will have is longer internodes.  That area below the first needles is barren of buds.  Hopefully you're seeing lots of backbudding.  You will likely have to cut back to some of those backbuds in a year or two.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Herman on April 29, 2014, 09:10 AM
Hi Judy,

sorry for Hijacking your thread and taking the attention away from your beautiful white pine, I just want to ask Adair a few questions


Hi Adair,

on the topic of backbudding on white pines, when do they generally backbud? in spring when growth starts, or in the later half of summer as they start to make buds for the follwing spring? is this why we generally fertilize after the new needles has hardened off, so that all the nutrients from fertilizing goes into bud production? I'm just trying to affirm what observations i've made from watching mine grow. Last question; considering white pines, how healthy does a tree need to be to backbud on very old wood and how do we get it healthy enough to backbud?

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on April 29, 2014, 09:47 AM
Thanks Adair, There are only a few that extended like the one shown, most were more compacted.  So shouldn't be too much trouble, as most were in the apex portions, and that is budding quite a bit.

No problem Herman, good questions to ask.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: jlushious on April 29, 2014, 12:22 PM
I'm not Adair, and I'm not sure when backbudding happens, but as far as I understand we don't fert between when candles start to push until they harden off to keep the new growth from getting too leggy - the fert can lengthen internodes.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Adair M on April 29, 2014, 01:02 PM
That's right, hold off the fert until mid summer.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on December 06, 2014, 04:24 PM
Did some work on this tree today, cut off a branch that has been bothering me for a long time, the lower left branch.  It always was going to read as a bar branch, and I couldn't look at it anymore.  So I cut off the forward sections and left the back portion of that branch.  I think it doesn't read as a bar anymore, but will take off the rest if I see it still looks that way.  I did a good bit of wiring, got about 1/3 left to do.  But a good start, and the tree was instantly better after cutting off that branch. 
First pic after the tree was unwired a few weeks ago, then just after I cut the branch off.  Last two are after some wiring. 
I like this tree again now...
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Sorce on December 07, 2014, 12:40 AM
Damn!  :o

What deciduous trees! This and the angle changer are fantastic!
Bark,trunk.....foilage!

It looks good without that branch, and if you get the rest (above it)down some, it could(should) be fully removed.

Wow. Bark!

I love the pot, but not for this guy.

Sorce

Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Chrisl on December 07, 2014, 09:47 AM
Nicely done Judy, very good move! 
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: John Kirby on December 07, 2014, 09:54 AM
Nice job Judy. Looks like the next order of business is to repot in the spring. Miyajima can become very dense and highly ramified over a fairly short period of time. In your climate you canbuild strength by fertilizing early and controlling uniformity of growth with sequential candle breaking/pinching.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: BonsaiEngineer1493 on December 07, 2014, 10:27 AM
Great progress!
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on December 07, 2014, 12:46 PM
Yes repot definitely.  I think into this pot again.  In person it suits the tree so far.  Maybe when it's further along, I'll look for something else.  What type of pot would you see this in?  

I think that the remainder of the branch stays for now, unless it reads as a problem still.  With the back angle does it seem to read badly now?  

Thanks for taking the time to comment!

I'll post pics again after I finish the wiring.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on December 07, 2014, 07:26 PM
Not finished but almost, still have the apex to go.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: DorianJF on December 08, 2014, 12:14 AM
Love this tree.

Well done Judy.  Looking good.  You are definitely on the right track.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on August 29, 2015, 02:06 PM
Thought I'd update this with some current pictures.  This is a new container for the tree built for it by Randy Doughty.  It's a really perfect fit for the tree, and shows it off much better than the old pot.  Did a bit of wiring as well...it's coming along.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Owen Reich on August 30, 2015, 02:06 AM
How do you feel about the direction of IMG3902 above?  Seems like the planting angle and front solves a lot of structural issues with the design and has more depth.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Potawatomi13 on August 30, 2015, 05:28 AM
A couple of comments please if you will allow me.

The final planting looks like it brought the low branch that you bent and lowered back up? :-\

In an earlier back photo it looked as if there are 3 branches that were all emerging at the same level? ???  Very uncomfortable I see this and in my case find a way to get rid of 2 of them. :(

If removing a lower branch and leaving a seeming void I find a way to bring down or around branching from another keeper branch.

A nice trunk/foundation you have to work with. 8)  
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Adair M on August 30, 2015, 08:33 AM
Owen, It's really hard to pick a front from photos. I always have to set it on a turn table.

That said, I do see what you like about IMG3902, but wouldn't that make the trunk pigeon breasted? 

As an aside, this tree gives us an opportunity to discuss styling...  Judy's current styling is the way a lot of (most?) Americans would style a slant. The trunk leans left, and the first branch, the key branch, comes back to the right. So, that it is "balanced". 

On the other hand, the Japanese style would be more like what Owen has suggested, and develop the key branch to extend to the left. The trunk leans left, the key branch should be to the left, under the concept that whatever environmental influences that caused the trunk to lean would also favor the key branch to grow in the same direction as the trunk.

I'm not going to say that one way is right and the other wrong, just point out the difference.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on August 30, 2015, 02:39 PM
 I will want to go physically look at the tree and see how far off from that angle (3902) it did get planted.  I raised the right side, as that was the intention, (there's a block on the back right of 3902) but looks like the rotation is a bit different than the photo.  When I was potting it, this appeared to be the best "front" in person.  Yes the branch was brought back up to straight at that point, as I raised that side.  I don't know that I will ever be able to lower this branch, and don't know that it's all important to do this.  It would be better I think, but don't see that as a terminal flaw?  As far as three branches coming from the same spot, that issue was solved with branch removal a year or so ago I think. 
I would really like it if you could lay out the structural problems you see with the current angle if possible, and I for my part will take some photos tomorrow with different angles to look at.  I did very little rootwork when I moved the tree to the new container, other than raising the back right side, so the angle could be changed again relatively soon.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Owen Reich on August 31, 2015, 12:35 AM
 

On the other hand, the Japanese style would be more like what Owen has suggested, and develop the key branch to extend to the left. The trunk leans left, the key branch should be to the left, under the concept that whatever environmental influences that caused the trunk to lean would also favor the key branch to grow in the same direction as the trunk.


I disagree that your layout would be the "Japanese Way".  Dynamic tension trees are all over the place in Japan.  Meaning, the trunk line or major features of the tree go one way, and the apex and / or primary branch go the other. 

My preferences tend more towards harmonious feeling trees with this current layout and I tend to avoid more heavy lined power designs like the current planting angle and branch layout.  Just a personal thing. 

As Adair said (paraphrasing) there isn't a right or wrong answer. 
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Owen Reich on August 31, 2015, 12:43 AM
Judy, I don't see the key branch as a terminal flaw.  I do think a lot of the main branch is visible to the viewer, and could be broken up with some foliage.

Last night I played around with the photos.  Wasn't going to share them, but what the hell.  Please note, this was a two minute sort of thing and branch selection would be careful.
Title: Re: JWP2
Post by: Judy on August 31, 2015, 08:17 AM
Totally agree with you about the foliage breaking up that branch.  Also that branch might be better shorter.  Thanks for the pics, appreciate the time taken! Gotta admit that #2 made me giggle, as I've seen that too, but know I'd NEVER be able to cut that much of the tree off! :D
I will look at the other ideas with the tree in front of me today.

This is a good discussion about styling in general, the kind of discussions I want to see here on the forum.