Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => White Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Judy on January 14, 2013, 02:48 PM

Title: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 14, 2013, 02:48 PM
I bought this little JWP from Lotus a few years ago, and promised to post when I had some time, so here it is. 
First photo as I received it, then progress over the years. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 14, 2013, 02:49 PM
Here is a possible new front I've been toying with the idea of.  Would be more dynamic, but would entail a major overhaul...
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Jason E on January 14, 2013, 09:23 PM
Hi Judy,
Nice tree, I like what the possible new front idea does for the trunk movement.

jason
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: bwaynef on January 15, 2013, 11:28 AM
Nice work Judy.  What do you think of shortening the lower-left branch to bring in the silhouette on that side a little (of the current front).  
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 15, 2013, 04:04 PM
I have thought of doing that, but as I'm thinking of changing the front, (maybe) I don't want to do it....yet.
Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 04:38 PM
Judy very nice. It is amazing how many of these nice little pines never see wire, yours shows how much wiring can improve the image!

The one thing I always have to remind myself of is to ensure that nothing points downwards, or nearly downwards, at each cluster of needles on pines and junipers. wiring to give a little upswing at the ned of each branchlet really helps with this. THis gives that nice view of the structure of the branch emerging out from under the foliage.

John
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Chrisl on January 15, 2013, 05:40 PM
All this talk of JWPs has me wondering Judy if you don't mind me asking?...and that is how many yrs. does it take the JWP bark to match up to the JBP bark?
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 15, 2013, 05:43 PM
Well my bonsai motto is "wire changes everything!" So true.  I may expose a bit more of the trunk on this, I think I was too intent on hiding the graft at first...

Chris, I don't know but it must be a very long time.  Getting one with a reasonably good graft is important, that's why I went for the second one.  The first one was for practice!  But it's a sweet tree despite the flaws. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Chrisl on January 15, 2013, 05:51 PM
That's pretty funny Judy!  I like your approach  ;)  And I agree with you, the second graft is better than this one.  But this one is very nice too, and will be really nice when the bark matches up. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 06:30 PM
The bark doesn't match up. So you have to make good choices to get them close.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Chrisl on January 15, 2013, 06:52 PM
That surprised me ;)  Thanks John!
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Adair M on January 15, 2013, 07:22 PM
The JWP bark will "eventually" start to look flaky, become fissured and build plates like JBP.  But there will always be a vast difference between where the JBP stops and the JWP starts on the trunk in terms of trunk diameter.

How long is "eventually"?  I don't know, 20 years or more probably.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: John Kirby on January 15, 2013, 09:09 PM
More.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Dirk on January 16, 2013, 12:44 AM
I've got one in my garden, as a landscape tree, also grafted on JBP that is well over 20 years old. bark is still
smooth, yet begins to age.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 17, 2013, 07:38 AM
I can see a difference between the JWP bark on this one, and my other older one.  The bark on the older one begins to fissure a bit.  I imagine it's quite a bit older, although I don't really know how old either one is. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Chrisl on January 17, 2013, 08:16 AM
Well now I know why the few JWP on wp stock is SO expensive. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 17, 2013, 09:54 AM
I think it's also difficult to find (on own roots), as I hear that they are finicky as far as conditions.  I think they tolerate heat far less well than grafted trees.  I don't think it would thrive here where I live.
Thanks for finding the issue date for me, now I just have to find one!
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Dan W. on January 17, 2013, 10:58 AM
Even the white pines in the mountains here can take well over 30 years to even start getting rough bark. And that's in extreme conditions! I don't know if the grafting speeds this process up at all?

I'll start another thread covering bark development on my big limber to show just how long it can take.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: John Kirby on January 17, 2013, 01:38 PM
I have two big Japanese White Pines on their own roots, one a Kokonoe that started as a graft on JBP that ground layered and the other is a seedling 11 trunk raft. You really have to watch them on their own roots, but the are beautiful. One of the prime reasons to graft them is that they grow so much faster on JBP roots and you can get the Yatsubusa and short needle charaters that so many people prefer.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Dan W. on January 17, 2013, 04:51 PM
I have two cutting grown Zuisho JWP's. They are delicate, but I'm really excited to watch them develop... over the next 30-40 years...lol
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Dan W. on January 17, 2013, 06:51 PM
John that Kokonoe is one of my favorite's of yours! I'm not sure if I've seen the raft though?
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on December 20, 2013, 03:01 PM
Here is an update on this tree, after thinning and wiring.  I'm pretty happy with the results, there were a lot of extra shoots, so I should see some backbudding. This tree seems very healthy as well. 

I know that one tuft at the apex looks odd on the first pic, but I adjusted it after I saw it...
current front, maybe a better new angle?,  side

Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on December 20, 2013, 03:03 PM
back, other side, top...
Anybody see anything that is bothersome?  I'm happy to have input.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Sorce on December 21, 2013, 08:10 AM
Hey Judy.

   The second front w/fixed tuft and little angle exposes the trunkline more, I like that.

But then, id like to see it tilted about 30 degrees right, about till the black wire is vertical.

I think that will give it even more movement, a more dramatic statement.

Any more up/down movement in the lowest branches  would complete what I'm seeing.

I just watched this again on YouTube.Korean bonsai master Seok Ju Kim -YouTube. Bonsai focus.
Master Kim quotes a Japanese Master who said something to the tune of, Europeans(Americans) are too kind to their trees so they will never achieve what Asian artists achieve.

So I say. Give it hell, and it will reward you!   not everyone can do this. But your work says you can!





Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Chrisl on December 21, 2013, 12:32 PM
Judy, I really like this white pine.  But one thought, can you add some movement into that l. dropping branch?  Seems like it's small enough to bend with a basic branch bender?  Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on December 21, 2013, 01:29 PM
I do not have confidence that I can bend that branch, perhaps if I can get Owen back over, we can talk about that.
I too would like to see at least a bit of a bend.  
As far as tipping, I think it actually gives less movement, as it makes the trunk more upright.  Here is a pic that I took of that angle before the work was done.
Thanks for the input, always helpful!
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 08, 2014, 01:56 PM
If it were my tree, I think I would try to add more empty space on the interior of the trunk's curve - unless your plan is to create a solid green dome over the trunk.  Maybe that would mean removing the lower left branch and wiring the branch directly above it down. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 08, 2014, 02:21 PM
mcpsq,
the primary problem with removing that branch would be that the graft area would become quite exposed.  Which as you know with some of these trees can be not so pretty.  I think I like the idea of more empty space, but I don't know that removing that particular branch is the way to do it.  I'll take a look with your idea in mind, and see what can be removed in a pleasing way. 

I'm also hoping that you looked at the pics from reply 21 not the one in the post above your comment... That pic was taken before much work was done this year.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 08, 2014, 02:29 PM
Yep, looked at all your pics.  In reply 21, the third pic sorta shows what I'm talking about.  I know that's not your front with the main branch moving towards the opposite side, but I think you can see how the empty space improves the look of the tree.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 08, 2014, 02:37 PM
What about pic 2 of reply 22 as your front?  You could keep that main branch, just angle it up a bit, and move the foliage at the top to hide the graft area?  That would accentuate the curve of the trunk, particularly by increasing the white space right off the curve.

It's always hard to give opinions on a 2D image of a tree.  Plus, I tend to like my trees with more open spaces, and less of the green helmet look.  For me, that primary branch on the left seems a bit awkward, unless ultimately you're planning to cut it back to interior branches and create a curvier primary branch. 
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 08, 2014, 02:38 PM
Thanks for the reply, I'll pull it out and take a look when I get a chance.  I think the idea has merit, but I'll have to see if it can be done without removal of that lowest branch.  I've grown attached to that branch, it carries much of the tree's character at this point.
J
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 08, 2014, 02:43 PM
What about pic 2 of reply 22 as your front?  You could keep that main branch, just angle it up a bit, and move the foliage at the top to hide the graft area?  That would accentuate the curve of the trunk, particularly by increasing the white space right off the curve.

It's always hard to give opinions on a 2D image of a tree.  Plus, I tend to like my trees with more open spaces, and less of the green helmet look.  For me, that primary branch on the left seems a bit awkward, unless ultimately you're planning to cut it back to interior branches and create a curvier primary branch. 

Interestingly, my thought above seems to be very close to the front you were thinking about in reply 1.  Eventually shorten that primary branch and I think that you would have a much better tree.  But maybe there was a reason you didn't go that route.
Title: Re: JWP1
Post by: Judy on January 08, 2014, 02:43 PM
What about pic 2 of reply 22 as your front?  You could keep that main branch, just angle it up a bit, and move the foliage at the top to hide the graft area?  That would accentuate the curve of the trunk, particularly by increasing the white space right off the curve.

It's always hard to give opinions on a 2D image of a tree.  Plus, I tend to like my trees with more open spaces, and less of the green helmet look.  For me, that primary branch on the left seems a bit awkward, unless ultimately you're planning to cut it back to interior branches and create a curvier primary branch. 

I can't tell you how many times I've toyed with using this very image as the front.  It does have some potential.  
I agree with the open space idea, most of my trees do have a more open scheme.  This one was not a very expensive tree that I started with, (read - a less well done graft) so it has more to overcome when looking at leaving spaces into the interior.  I am hoping to get some interior buds on that branch where I can ultimately cut it back and regrow it with a bit more curve.... Awkward, yes a bit, but getting better as I go along.

But I still look at that side view a lot.  If I ever get bored with the front..... that's where I'll go.  But the base from there is BORING.

Thank you!