Author Topic: JWP from seed  (Read 5325 times)

Dirk

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JWP from seed
« on: August 04, 2011, 02:57 PM »
A few weeks ago I received my long awaited copy of "Pines" from Stone Lantern. One of the things that struck me most were the astonishing results achieved with growing JBP from seed. What good results after 6 or 7 years!!

Growing White Pine from seed is slower! I have some seedlings that are in their second year now. last spring potted them up and I was intended to follow the "rules" in my other books: potting sequence 1, 3, 5, 8 and 11 years.
I think some of the methods followed when growing JBP will work for JWP as well.I think of transferring half of the seedlings next spring into much larger pond baskets. Hope to be able to wire them in the fall of next year.

It seems to be hard to find something on growing JWP from seed? Anyone with experience?
For sure it will be no "instant Bonsai", but in eight to ten years time I should be able to have some nice Shohin JWB
Anyhow, growing from seed is still a lot of fun.
 

tanlu

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 01:29 PM »
I have 6 JWP grown from seed, all in different stages of growth. I actually would've had 26 by now if my roommate hadn't forgotten to water the 1y/o seedlings over the weekend :(

I've read several academic articles about JWP in their natural habitat in Japan reporting that young seedlings grow best in semi-shaded areas until they're about 4 years old. One thing's for sure, they they do best with morning sun, shade protection from 12~3pm, and later afternoon sun. I'm sure my seedlings would have been fine if I had left them in shade over the weekend.With the exception of my zuisho, all my JWP are grown from seed.

If you want to speed up the growing process, plant them in 7" colanders, use 100% inorganic medium granule bonsai soil, and fertilize them every week with organic and inorganic (miracid/miraclegrow) fertilizer. Now is about that time when you switch from high nitrogen to high phosphorous fertilizer. If you don't have one already, look for a bloom booster fertilizer at Lowe's.

note: heavy fertilizing + heavy watering + fast drainage + lots of sun = rapid healthy growth.

Looking forward to seeing the progress of your trees.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 01:34 PM by tanlu »
 

Dirk

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 10:49 AM »
This winter I lost a few of my JWP seedlings. Others are growing well.
I removed four seedlings today.

Half of the seedlings (14 in total) where potted in a mix of fired clay (catlitter) and pumice and kyriu. The other half was potted in the same mix, but with Akadama in stead of the fired clay.
All four of the culled out seedlings where in the Akadama-mix.
I know there is a ongoing discusion about the use of Akadama. At least in Europe. Even the hardest Akadama seems to break up in the soil which makes the soil very compact. Fired clay doesn't.
Now I read a article, I think from Peter Tea, that states more or less that using Akadama is better because the particles are breaking up.
It must be coincidence that the four dead seedlings where in Akadama.
Maybe anyone can comment on what mix to use. (If i had to repot now, I would use Akadama, pumice and lava; It looks good, dries quickly and gives me confidence (my Itoigawa cuttings are doing fine in this mix!)

 

tanlu

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 04:34 PM »
Hi Dick,

Thanks for posting this! I'm also growing JWP from seed. I have 3 jwp grown from seed that I planted in the ground. 2 are 5 y/o and 1 is 7yo.The grower I purchased my seedlings from grows them in pure turface and turkey grit (crushed granite). He's been very successful and already has several decent JWP shohin. I think the key to his success is a combination of: good soil drainage, good seeds, and that he cuts the tap root after their first year. He uses purely chemical fertilizer once/week and gives the seedlings a little more shade. I believe they do better with full sun after year 4.

I haven't successfully grown them from seed myself, but I have a few seedlings that sprouted this spring indoors that hopefully will grow well and will survive the winter. I'm much more interested in growing JWP on their own roots (since it's only natural), so please continue to update us on your progress!

Theo
 

John Kirby

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 09:29 PM »
Tanlu,
why not graft on to black pine, gain the rapid growth and then ground layer the white pine to eliminate the JBP to JWP transition? Works well. see http://bonsaistudygroup.com/white-pine-discussion/kokonoe-white-pine/

You can have a tree like this in only 70 years or so.


John
 

gtuthill

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 12:06 AM »
Hi,
Nice to see the progress.  Can you tell me what seed preparation you did.  I have read that the process for JWP is 60 days warm stratification followed by 90 days cold stratification.  Even then  germination is 40-60%.

What was your experience?

Greg
 

tanlu

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2012, 12:51 AM »
Greg, I had some of my seedlings sprout from seeds I collected in the fall and kept in a sealed sandwich bag in the fridge. What I did was put them in hot-warm water for 24 hours. The seeds that sank to the bottom were viable, and the ones that kept floating were sterile. I even checked most of the sterile seeds by crushing them. They were all empty so I know it works. Keep them in the fridge for about 90 days, and check the bag every few weeks or so. You can add some sphagnum moss to maintain moisture and keep pathogens at bay, but be sure it's never wet.

John,

I get what you mean, but do you have any other examples where ground-layering has worked well for this purpose? One would have to graft awfully low to achieve this. Is it possible to graft only the root tissue of JBP onto the root tissue of JWP so that the graft isn't even visible?

Theo
 

John Kirby

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2012, 02:36 PM »
It was a typical hi-end graft, made low by the nebari. A number of people have ground layered Kokonoe and Zuisho, but both can also be started from cuttings, with more than a little luck and a skill. I have a couple of bad Zuisho grafts that I purchased for cuttings, after 6-7 years they are finally growing strong enough that I might try some cuttings next year. John
 

Dirk

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 01:52 AM »
Greg,
When I started these seedlings I had hundreds of fresh seeds, from the white pine in my garden.
Only about 30 or so sank to the bottom, the rest remained floating. Of these 30 seeds 15 sprouted.
5 died so far (all of them where by the way in Akadama), 3 are very much behind so I think I will cull them out.
So now in their third year are 7 good growing white Pine seedlings.

John,
I don't think I live to see these little trees reach the age of 70 years, I think making mame or shohin is for me the best option.

Tanlu, you referred to another mix for growing seedlings.
Losing only trees growing in Akadama puzzles me! Could it possibly be due to watering the trees?
Has anyone thougts on that?

Dick
 

Dirk

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2012, 02:02 AM »
Greg,

I did not answer your question.
I did not do warm and cold stratification. I planted the seeds right after collecting, in fall. I did scarify though, with hot water, and let them soak for a day or to.

Next time I Will try the method that Jonas Dupuich discriped in his blog http://bonsaitonight.com/category/bonsai-development/page/2/ of scarification and stratification in in spring, just before planting.

Dick
 

tanlu

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 02:06 AM »
Dick,

I think akadama is way over rated. I've never used it myself, but for good reason. I hear it breaks down too quickly, and the grower I mentioned is by far the most knowledgeable person on the east coast about JWP seedlings, particularly the zuisho cultivar which he air layers and grows from cuttings. I use his soil mixture (turface and crushed granite) because it simply doesn't break down, and his JWP grow quite rapidly, even on their own roots. I really believe an absolute must for growing healthy pines is extremely well draining soil that doesn't break down, even after 4 years.
 

John Kirby

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 10:55 AM »
Tanlu, I am glad that you think Akadama is "way over rated". That means that you won't be using it, thanks. I will ask Julian about his production practices when I see him next week, however if you really want expert east coast knowledge about Japanese White Pine bonsai I would suggest adding Suthin and Bill Valvanis, among others, to your list and getting the full range of knowledge. 
 

tanlu

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 11:23 AM »
John, you're more than welcome to it! It's expensive and it breaks down too quickly in my area. Perhaps it'll do well for material that's undergoing refinement, but certainly not for developing material that need trunk girth. I'll certainly contact those experts you've mentioned, but from what I've seen, Julian is the only expert I've heard of who grows raw non-grafted JWP material from seed, cutting, and air-layer, and sells them at a competitive price.

Theo

 

John Kirby

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 12:41 PM »
Notice I said Bonsai, not grower material, all the newbies always said the hard part is getting the trunk, not the first step is getting the trunk and nebari, then comes the next step- which is branches, then the really hard step, refinement. If it were easy there would be lots of truly refined JWP in the US.
 

tanlu

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Re: JWP from seed
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2012, 01:33 PM »
John, I'm referring specifically to pre-bonsai raw material, and that's everything I have, and can afford at this point. All bonsai begin from this point. So I'm not looking for advice on how to cultivate JWP that are ready for refinement yet. I should be there in 10 years or so with one of the Zuisho I purchased from Julian, and with a Pitch Pine clump that I collected last year. For now, I'm just enjoying the process of guiding the growth of my "trees".