Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => White Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Herman on July 14, 2014, 06:10 AM

Title: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 14, 2014, 06:10 AM
Hi Guys :),

a friend of mine arranged with me to give one of his white pines it's first styling. He pitched up Saturday morning and I started working on it...took me 6 hours to thin, wire out to the ends and style this tree

The tree surprised both of us by turning out a lot better than anticipated

any comments/questions welcome

will post pics in the following post

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 14, 2014, 06:12 AM
Before and after

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: bwaynef on July 14, 2014, 08:31 AM
In the after pic, it looks very 2-Dimensional.  Have any pictures from the sides?
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 14, 2014, 08:48 AM
In the after pic, it looks very 2-Dimensional.  Have any pictures from the sides?

I will have to ask Joe to take pictures from the sides and back, and post them on this thread. Any thoughts on why it comes across as two dimensional to you Wayne?

The tree is short a back branch in the top half of the tree, it looked like there grew a few at some point that never reached any size( the little dried up stumps were half the thickness of a pencil). He is going to try and graft the tree there to make the back look fuller from the sides.

thanks for replying
kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 15, 2014, 05:30 AM
no one else going to chime in?
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: bwaynef on July 15, 2014, 09:23 AM
In the after pic, it looks very 2-Dimensional.  Have any pictures from the sides?
Any thoughts on why it comes across as two dimensional to you Wayne?
I don't notice many back branches, and the side branches don't seem to have much depth either.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 15, 2014, 10:52 AM
Hi Wayne,

thanks for the reply.

it has only one distinguishable back branch in the second whorl up from soil level. "And the side branches don't seem to have much depth either.  Am I wrong?"  Lol Wayne if you see no depth in the side branches in the  photo, then you see no depth...eyes do not lie to us often. though I'm not exactly sure what you mean by no depth to the side branches.Are you of opinion that I should have wired them into more fan shaped pads so they would seem to be wider and give more of a 3d effect?

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: bwaynef on July 15, 2014, 02:03 PM
Can you post a picture of the tree turned 90° from the front?
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Adair M on July 15, 2014, 02:22 PM
Herman,

The second level of branches, seems to have three branches, one of which is pointing at us in the front...

Is it possible the view would be better from the other side?  That is, are looking at the back of the tree?
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 15, 2014, 05:00 PM
Hi adair,

Thanks for posting.  Its really difficult to tell from the after pic of the tree but the branch in front is not coming directly at the viewer. Also the branch going back is not going directly backwards. Maybe if I lowered the front branch even more to place these pads at different levels it would've come off as more 3d in a photo. The current back would've worked as a front but for a really nasty scar just where the apex starts, worst thing about this scar is that it is in plain view and there is no branches there that can be used to cover it with, lastly the apex will lean away as the continuation of the trunk into the apex leans away from that knob to the current front.

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: JoesBonsai on July 16, 2014, 01:06 AM
Hi Herman

some other view of the white pine
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: JoesBonsai on July 16, 2014, 01:07 AM
top view
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Adair M on July 16, 2014, 01:34 AM
Ok...

I still like the back as the front.

Either way, we have the straight trunk. It really needs a bend. There is nice movement in the lower trunk, and up at the apex, its just that middle section that needs help.

It's going to take more than wire. First off, I'm thinking there's got to be a better way to anchor your guy wires!  But we'll discuss that another day.

What I have in mind is using a piece of heavy rebar or maybe an iron pipe, and a block of wood. Secure the pipe/rebar at the base, place the block of wood between the trunk and rebar, and using wire (and maybe a clamp) slowly pull the top of the trunk towards the rebar. The block of wood acts as a fulcrum. Tighten the wire as you bend.

I'm thinking that it would be great if (using the back as the new front) you could bend it so the apex is pulled towards the new front.

Of course, pad everything with rubber.

Give it a thought.  You and your buddy could do it together. ( I suspect the more hands and muscle, the better.).

Good luck!
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 16, 2014, 04:27 AM
Hello Adair,

I gave this a lot of thought, bending the trunk in that straight section will solve a lot of problems for this tree

1 - it will put movement into a boring straight section of trunk
2 - it will bring the apex closer to the upper pads and make the tree look more full
3 - it will bring about an opportunity to cover that ugly knob/knuckle with some foliage of the second level of branches, if it can be bent over enough

 I thought of bending that section to the front and right to accomplish this. this is if my buddy wants to do this of course; It's his tree after all.

thanks for the pointers Adair.

will also have to move those branches to accommodate the new front

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: bwaynef on July 16, 2014, 10:01 AM
Ignore my comments about depth then.  It could certainly be fuller ...but it could be older too.  (I get that it'll eventually get there ...in both regards.)  Those additional pictures were helpful.

And welcome Joe!
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: John Kirby on July 16, 2014, 11:00 PM
The problem isn't movement. The problem lies in the lack of taper. So, the way to make the trunk work is by styling the tree to conceal parts of the trunk. You have done a nice styling, hidden by bad photography (must be the clinkers). Your friend's pictures show a much more interesting tree. Particularly the top down shot.


Adair is right. Your anchoring technique, well, is just bad. You can hook a wire through the drain hole, bring it over and hook to the other side of the drain hole, then tie down to that. Your present techniques is a noble one, yet still a fail. You have done a very nice first styling of the tree. Now it needs to grow.
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: 0soyoung on July 17, 2014, 01:36 AM
The problem isn't movement. The problem lies in the lack of taper.

Yes it is the lack of movement.
Yes it is the lack of taper.
AND it is that this tree is nothing more than a stack of bar branches.

Unless one has a ton of money, these are problems I think one has to learn how to deal with. It will be very hard, if not impossible, to change these characteristics of this tree.

SO, the challenge with this tree is how to disguise these (rather serious) faults. Unfortunately, Herman, all your good work did the opposite - it emphasized these faults, rather than minimized them, in my opinion.

Take a look at Andy Rutledge's 'Artistic Foundations of Bonsa' (http://andyrutledge.com/book/) web book and also at Pavel Slovak's work (http://www.bonsaivigi.cz/fotoalbum/tvarovani-a-vyvoj---styling-and-development/). Pavel shows in photo sequences how he goes from what looks like junk to create gorgeous trees by disguising the faults and emphasizing the strong points. He may not be the best there is, but his photo album the best display of the process that I know. It is helping me a lot with similar bonsai challenges and (possibly) overcoming my personal artistic shortcomings.
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 17, 2014, 03:59 AM

Unless one has a ton of money, these are problems I think one has to learn how to deal with. It will be very hard, if not impossible, to change these characteristics of this tree.

SO, the challenge with this tree is how to disguise these (rather serious) faults. Unfortunately, Herman, all your good work did the opposite - it emphasized these faults, rather than minimized them, in my opinion.


Hell, you are serious :)

Thanks for taking the time to post a comment though.

You must realize that the branches on that whorl are very thick and stiff, to have bent them to different levels in one sitting would've surely caused some damage, they will end up on different levels in time. Secondly the tree is very bare and will need grafting in the future to fill up the empty spaces on the trunk(which will hide those damn awful bar branches). Because this is such bad material, "junk" as you put it,it looks fine to me :) and all of us are still learning, aren't we? no matter how experienced we are.

BTW Pavel is brilliant, I am familiar with his work. But he works with top notch yamadori he collects himself. I doubt he would collect "junk" in his own eyes.

Thanks for the links, they will prove useful in future tree styling endeavors.

regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 17, 2014, 04:22 AM
The problem isn't movement. The problem lies in the lack of taper. So, the way to make the trunk work is by styling the tree to conceal parts of the trunk. You have done a nice styling, hidden by bad photography (must be the clinkers). Your friend's pictures show a much more interesting tree. Particularly the top down shot.


Adair is right. Your anchoring technique, well, is just bad. You can hook a wire through the drain hole, bring it over and hook to the other side of the drain hole, then tie down to that. Your present techniques is a noble one, yet still a fail. You have done a very nice first styling of the tree. Now it needs to grow.

Hello Mr Kirby,

eh I apologize for the bad photography...my bad

unfortunately these trees are what they are, and they are the best white pine material we can get our hands on. Lol knew I was going to get flack from the experts about my anchoring techniques, I'll make a better plan next time I assault this tree. Thanks for taking the time to reply and the encouragement. this tree will rest for a long time now, until it's time to repot, we will repot both this white pine and mine next spring

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: John Kirby on July 17, 2014, 05:08 PM
My point is, hide the lack of taper with foliage over time. It will be just fine.
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on July 18, 2014, 03:15 AM
My point is, hide the lack of taper with foliage over time. It will be just fine.

Got that Mr Kirby ;D, was my plan also before posting the tree here. thanks

kind regards
Herman

Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: Herman on August 06, 2014, 08:15 AM
How is your tree doing Joe? has it started pushing candles? all my pines are still very dormant

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: JoesBonsai on August 14, 2014, 09:29 AM
Hi Herman,

White Pine is doing well but still dormant ,one thing I noticed  on it is two weeks ago I did some carving on it and it was completely dry I noticed last this week that there is risen starting to drip  from the carving . so it shouldn't be too long now  ;)
The Black Pines are ahead and already have some nice candles :D


Keep Well
Joe
Title: Re: Another white pine I styled for my buddy
Post by: GBHunter on September 12, 2014, 02:07 PM
Wow i wish I could create trees like this, I think its wondrful.