Author Topic: Trident progression  (Read 16573 times)

Josh

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Trident progression
« on: July 26, 2014, 07:40 PM »
8 years in the works...

First image, spring after purchase of import, repot, restyling.
Second image, 5 years later.  Posted on another site, and got a fair amount of heat for the "pine" styling. Many suggestions, some useful, some not and many expressed interest to change to the tree in meadow look, rounded apex naturalistic tree.
Third image, today 8 years after first picture.  I have shortened tree by 6 inches. Changed front and back.  Working to build appropriate branching, proportion and single line movement. Lower branches have been thickened.  Several back whips are left to go for grafting next year.  Now a triangle.  In coming years will round out and soften/create apex.
 

Judy

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 10:02 AM »
Hi josh, nice tree.  Are you going to keep all the current branches in your plan?  In the middle pic, it seems like there are too many branches for that beautiful trunk to be a point of focus.  I like low branching, but wonder if some of the lower ones are distracting as there are so many overall.  Nice nebari too.
 

shimsuki

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 05:58 PM »
Very nice, thanks for sharing!
 

Sorce

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 10:02 PM »
It is nice. I do find the styling nicely excecuted, but uninteresting.

It seems the trunk, while mmmmm  stout with presence, would be too straight to be nice without those branches.

I would air layer it at the bend.for something traditional.

And hollow out the lower part for something creepy.

Sorce
 

Josh

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 10:22 PM »
Thank you for your comments.

Judy,
In last 2 years I have been trying to build the major branch structure, and in leaf, this is somewhat difficult to appreciate.  A winter pic will follow, and may help the discussion. Changing the front left me with poor branching on the lower half. Bottom branches were too small, and this has been improved. As one works up the tree, a couple of branches could not be used, and some were lost.  So the segment from bottom brached to mid tree has been the biggest project yet.  My hope would be to fill in this segment to look appropriate with and without leaves.

Sorce,
The idea to layer has been offered in the past, so you are not alone in your suggestion.  Also, a bit of reverse taper is present at mid tree (air layer would fix), which I hope to correct by the bulking up of lower branches.  There are 3 major turns in trunk seen on image 2, one more was added with trunk chop.  The movement is subtle, and hoping to go with slant/informal upright trunk line. There is also a bit of back/forth depth in trunk and general forward lean, which is hard to see without side views.  Again, more reason for winter images.  I also am hoping to keep base, with nebari, which was years in making. Hoping to get all the hollows healed over, to get a finished Japanese look, rather than the creepy, or Walter Pall look.
 

Owen Reich

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 11:34 PM »
Looking great  :)
 

John Kirby

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 01:29 AM »
Josh, the time and care you have provided this tree are very apparent. I think the idea of having some element that makes people a little uncomfortable is at work with this tree. I think the idea of letting your lower branches increase in bulk, while still giving yourself the opportunity to regain taper is a good one. Controlling the Apex will be crucial if you want to maintain scale and not start back over on the upper branches.

I wouldn't air layer it yet, the top isn't that much better than the whole and your gain wouldn't yet be that great. And I certainly wouldn't put it back in the ground.....

Please don't ruin this nice tree by making an ill advised deadwood feature. You have been at this long enough to know how those work out on maples.

John
 

Herman

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 06:27 AM »
"Posted on another site, and got a fair amount of heat for the "pine" styling"

I find this very amusing, as the second photo does not remind me of a pine styling at all. You know some people are extremely fanatic and sometimes see only what they want to see and immediately post some obscene comment. I have looked at these photos since you've posted the thread, I've come back and looked at it a few times since and I really see no strong resemblance to how a pine is styled in bonsai...I've seen pin Oaks in nature that look more like a pine than that second photo of your trident...that being said...

I've figured out why the tree seems a bit unsettling as Mr Kirby mentions, can the planting angle be altered a bit so that the first section of trunk does not seem so bolt upright? Its unsettling because the first section is bolt upright and then changes direction and in the top third it changes direction back to the base. Maybe if the tree was tilted slightly to the right? only suggestions though.

I think you have a very nice trident maple! and it is apparent that you know your stuff when it comes to properly caring for bonsai. The new styling will only enhance the tree.

wish I had a maple like this  ;)

kind regards
Herman
 

Judy

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 09:01 AM »
Josh, I'm sorry- I didn't realize that the second photo was the back of the tree now!  I will be watching for an update to see the new front this winter. I don't think the trunk is uninteresting in the slightest btw... Once you get some chunky branching going on low, it will certainly make the perspective better. 
Thanks for posting it here  :)
 

akeppler

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 11:24 PM »
"Posted on another site, and got a fair amount of heat for the "pine" styling"

I find this very amusing, as the second photo does not remind me of a pine styling at all. You know some people are extremely fanatic and sometimes see only what they want to see and immediately post some obscene comment. I have looked at these photos since you've posted the thread, I've come back and looked at it a few times since and I really see no strong resemblance to how a pine is styled in bonsai... kind regards
Herman

One only has to look as far as the home page to this site and the beautiful pine as the tree of the month to see how a pine is styled for bonsai. One also can't help but see the very true similarities to the styling of this maple and that pine. Ray Charles could see the similarities.
 

akeppler

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 11:41 PM »
I opened that dialog at the other site with my simple reply: "Nice looking pine".

Without knowing the person or the context of the tree or the desireabilities of the picture one can only make assesments on first impressions. My impression of that image is a trident maple being done in the pine tree style.

Maples do not grow like this. They are deciduous tree with many trunks emerging low on a base. That is the natural growth habit of the species. Many time tree species, or shrubs for that matter are styled to represent other species found in nature. Many juniper shrubs are styled to represent a battered bristlecone pine found at tree line with huge amounts of deadwood. I have seen elms prepared to represent acacia trees seen on the African scrub.

This particular tree falls into a very touchy catagory. Short sightedness of the grower. It is very easy to cut down a 2 inch trident and grow out a second section in a couple years. Cut it back again and grow out a third section and call it good. Great taper, movement, chunky base and good rootage. It is also very easy to grow out some branches in a "stairway to heaven" pattern and have a very presentable bonsai in a few years.

This tree is a very nice bonsai. It is not a very convincing maple bonsai. I go to some of the best shows in California on a yearly basis. Two shows in particular always have many trident maple bonsai. I have yet to see a trident maple grown in a convincing maple style yet.

How does a maple tree grow? ....looky here.....
 

akeppler

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 11:45 PM »
Again lets compare the maple with some other pine tree bonsai and look at the simularities.
 

akeppler

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 11:54 PM »
Pine tree

Maple tree.
 

akeppler

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 11:59 PM »
So, what are we left with? There are two ways to style a maple tree. Classical Japanese pine style, or modified broom, naturalistic, spreading oak style. One looks like a maple and one looks like a pine. I would get bored with all of the same in my collection so variety seems to rule the day. I have both in my collection and I love both styles.

Hopefully I have posted something for those of you to tell the professional blowhard when he tells you your maple looks like a pine. You can tell him "thank you very much, that is what I was going for. I have benches of maples at home but wanted to represent a pine with a maple for variety."

Cheers, Al
 

John Kirby

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Re: Trident progression
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 03:24 AM »
Al, do you have one that looks like a maple? I thought you were still stuck in the Sumo mud with the rest of us.

This tree would be relatively easy to convert to a more mapley look. Looking at the change in flow and direction of movement on trees in the woods or down along the river would give one a good sense of how to adjust branches, and which to remove. I look forward to seeing what you do with it.