Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Trident Maple Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: bwaynef on July 28, 2009, 08:21 PM

Title: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on July 28, 2009, 08:21 PM
Below are 4 pictures of a new Trident.  If the canopy was a little fuller it would look good in a pot during summer.  Anyway, I'll see where discussion leads before I go much further.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Dano on July 28, 2009, 09:20 PM
Wayne,
I have a very similar trident. I really like the markings on the bark of your tree. It really gives the apearance of age with the lichen. Have you considered to start pulling some of the larger limbs down. It will open the tree up more and begin the training of the lower branches. I decided not to use wire on my tree but rather tie downs. I then let the limbs grow long for a couple of years and thicken. You have a nice tree.

Dan
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Rick Moquin on July 28, 2009, 10:01 PM
Pretty much my line of thinking as well, as the primaries seem to be in the right position.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on July 29, 2009, 08:48 AM
Wayne,
I have a very similar trident. I really like the markings on the bark of your tree. It really gives the apearance of age with the lichen. Have you considered to start pulling some of the larger limbs down.

That's exactly what I intend to do.  I got this one yesterday @ about 3 so all I've had time to do was to take the pictures you see.  Its in my truck now, so if its not raining at lunch I'll be able to do that work then.

My only question is how to deal w/ the branch where it meets the trunk.  Looking at some huge maples and oaks around here, the low branches come off perpendicular to the trunk ...w/ no discernible upward movement.  When I bend this tree's branches down, there is a gentle rise before it levels off.

I figure I need to deal with this now or forever wish I'd gotten it right to begin with (and then not have the heart to lose the branch).  Should I notch the branch?  Top or bottom?  Is there a technique I'm missing?  If i allow unrestrained growth of those branches will the additional growth help to alleviate the appearance that the branch rises before it levels out (like how you have to exaggerate bends when you're styling whips)?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: rockm on July 29, 2009, 09:28 AM
You cannot pull those lower branches down enough to be convincing in that position with wire. Notching them won't really give them any better appearance.

The junction of the first branches and trunk are important visually to establish the mood of the tree. If you wire the current branches downward, they will be "rainbow" arcs for the most part and will look strange on such a great aged-looking trunk.

I'd hard prune or remove them next spring and wait for new shoots in those locations and manipulate them into a downward angle from the get-go. Since tridents have no trouble at all in pushing alot of new shoots at pruning sites, you won't have to wait long.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: andy graham on July 29, 2009, 09:39 AM
Nice tree Wayne! I'm with rockm on this. I'd prune every branch back hard(within a centimeter or two) of the trunk and start from there. It sounds drastic but my understanding of tridents is that they're not far behind Ficus(real trees) in growth rate and back budding.

Andy
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Billkcmo on July 29, 2009, 10:48 AM
Great tree.  It has a future.  If it were my tree I would start by wiring every branch down and keep  the secondary branches on the sides  primary branches.  Nice thing about a trident is you can remove all the branches and it will grow new ones.  Takes a long time to redevelope it after you do.  It is easier  for me to do than say.  LOL   Nice one Wayne
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: JTGJr25 on July 29, 2009, 12:18 PM
In addition to whats been said I would also choose an upper branch to be the new apex.  This will add the little bit of taper that the tree needs.


Tom
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: johng on July 29, 2009, 01:36 PM
Waynes Trident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsftdK7uZcs#normal)

All that said I have a couple Tridents I should have cut down years ago:)

Respectfully,
John
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: JTGJr25 on July 29, 2009, 01:51 PM
I agree with john, I didn't want to be the only one to say it but now that it's been said...

So in that first pic, if it were mine, i would cut it back to that first branch on the right and regrow the top.  Let the new leader grow and thicken up then chop again and keep doing so until you reach the desired effect.  I would think that you should have the trunk finished in the next two growing seasons as long as its healthy. 

Also, if you don't want to throw away the top you can always layer it but this would set back your time frame.


Tom
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: noissee on July 29, 2009, 02:52 PM
I think I would definitely layer it instead of just tossing away the top. It looks fairly thick, and as you know you can start out the layered tree with really great nebari. Unless you just have a bunch of this size tree waiting around in the ground for you to work on, I would regret not trying to get another tree out of it.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on July 29, 2009, 03:46 PM
You cannot pull those lower branches down enough to be convincing in that position with wire. Notching them won't really give them any better appearance.

Mark, thanks for your take on it.  I guess I knew what you (generally, not specifically ...though it *IS* to be expected from you) were going to tell me those branches would always be bent and it would never really look the way I wanted it to.  And to chop it back hard.  I have a few questions about the angles that low branches should come off the trunk on old maples ...but I'll get to that when I have time to take some pictures of some trees around me.  Again, thanks for your honesty.  (Rereading it sounds like I'm being smart***-ish.  Not my intent.  I will probably end up doing what you suggest.)

All that said I have a couple Tridents I should have cut down years ago:)

John, I appreciate you taking the time to put this video together.  Sounds like you have a very pleasant work area w/ a bird singing in the background and everything (or is it one of those annoying audobon clocks?).  Just because I have this new piece of stock doesn't mean that I like it the way it is.  I'm not attached to it so I'm certainly open to suggestions/discussion.  Are you suggesting, if I choose to chop it, that I chop to allow the 1st branch on the right to form the rest of the trunk/apex?

...I didn't want to be the only one to say it but now that it's been said...
I purposefully didn't say much about the tree because I wanted to see what others would say.  Discuss.  Don't hold back.  Please be civil (and I have no reason to suspect YOU wouldn't be), but I posted this one for discussion.


I think I would definitely layer it instead of just tossing away the top. It looks fairly thick, and as you know you can start out the layered tree with really great nebari. Unless you just have a bunch of this size tree waiting around in the ground for you to work on, I would regret not trying to get another tree out of it.

I'm torn about that, but in the end I'll only be set back 6 months.  The lure of having another tree isn't as enticing as having a really nice tree.  Again though, its only 6 months (if I hurry).

Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: johng on July 29, 2009, 03:52 PM
Hey Wayne...  without seeing the tree in person it is difficult to say which branch I would use.  I have complete confidence that you can make a good choice.
John
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bonsaikc on July 29, 2009, 04:06 PM
Wayne, with a trident, there is no necessity to even leave a branch. When you chop the trunk to a bare stump, you will have new buds pop all over the remaining trunk. If you air layer (I had good success in the past with cutting a groove and driving in a large wire or a deep carving will work too), it should sprout below the layer in the same way.

If you chop it, I'd still try to root the piece you chopped off, as it is a shame to give it up so easily.

Also: If you chop it, leave some extra length and chop it straight across. The tree will provide plenty of buds to choose from, but somehow if you chop at an angle, it will bud at the low end of the cut and not at the top, necessitating another chop later on.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing what you do with this one.

Chris
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: noissee on July 29, 2009, 07:50 PM
I'm torn about that, but in the end I'll only be set back 6 months.  The lure of having another tree isn't as enticing as having a really nice tree.  Again though, its only 6 months (if I hurry).


I can definitely identify with that feeling. I wouldn't hold it against if you went ahead and chunked it.  8)
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: gibmeister on July 29, 2009, 07:54 PM
What is the best time of year to do a trunk chop on a trident maple?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bonsaikc on July 30, 2009, 10:13 AM
I recommend spring, around repotting time. The tree will bud vigorously.

Chris
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: gibmeister on July 30, 2009, 09:04 PM
Chris,

Thanks! I have a couple I want to chop.

Gib
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on November 19, 2010, 08:27 AM
The airlayer took longer than I'd expected it to take through a few miscues of mine.  Fortuitously, the branch that remains was not a branch (or was small enough to not be noticed) before I'd started the airlayer.

There's still a little more uprightness to be had in that branch.


...Behold:
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on November 19, 2010, 10:27 AM
I was wrong about the fortuitous popping of the bud that became this branch.  If you look at:
(http://bonsaistudygroup.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=278.0;attach=1991;image) (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/trident-maple-discussion/new-trident-full-of-options/?action=dlattach;attach=1990;image)
you can see this branch was in place previous to my airlayering attempt. 

In the last post I mentioned I could bring that branch up further.  Any thoughts as to whether I should?


ps.  The airlayered portion had fantastic color this fall, ...but it's nothing to look at so I haven't bothered to take any picture(s) of it.  Thanks for asking.

Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 19, 2010, 10:31 AM
Looking good, Wayne.  What are your plans for the future?  Perhaps adjust the planting angle at some point a little more to the right?  Just a thought.  Still lots of time to decide with this one, I'm sure.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on November 20, 2010, 01:10 PM
Hi Wayne

If you really want to develop a trident that is small, powerful and compact, take all the wire off (it just stresses cells and slows down growth) and let the leader on the left full reign, probably two years or more. That will smooth out the transition. Branch building is not going to take place on that leader anyway. It's just too high.

When the leader is at the point that a smooth transition is achieved it will be saw about 3/8 to 1/2 inch above the beheading. This should be done in spring right at bud break. At that point you will get a good flush of buds no only at the chop for transition but also good buds on the trunk. You need that great branch (sasha eda) somewhere on the trunk and not only on the leaders. Grafting is an alternative and I have done this when necessary.

everything above the origianl chop (beheading) needs to be kept small. Prune to first node always. Continue pruning continually during branch building or straight segments will ruin your form. Wire for direction and not so much for shape. Reserve shaping to directional pruning or it will look terribly man made.

I commend you on the chop, I have no idea why so many continue to work on taller less attractive trees when a really good smaller tree can be made from a good base.

Cheers, Al
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on November 20, 2010, 04:48 PM
If you really want to develop a trident that is small, powerful and compact, take all the wire off (it just stresses cells and slows down growth) and let the leader on the left full reign, probably two years or more. That will smooth out the transition. Branch building is not going to take place on that leader anyway. It's just too high.
When you mention "the leader on the left" and "It's just too high" are you talking about the thin branch w/ 1 coil of wire on it growing to the left?

Quote
When the leader is at the point that a smooth transition is achieved it will be saw about 3/8 to 1/2 inch above the beheading. This should be done in spring right at bud break. At that point you will get a good flush of buds no only at the chop for transition but also good buds on the trunk. You need that great branch (sasha eda) somewhere on the trunk and not only on the leaders. Grafting is an alternative and I have done this when necessary.
I think here you're talking about cutting it 1/2" above where I just cut it ...after there's a smooth transition.  I'll keep that in mind.  I would've thought I'd keep more of that trunk section, ...but I see what you're saying.

Quote
everything above the origianl chop (beheading) needs to be kept small. Prune to first node always. Continue pruning continually during branch building or straight segments will ruin your form. Wire for direction and not so much for shape.
Good stuff here.  Re: wiring for direction & pruning for shape, I've noticed that on several threads you've posted and meant to ask you about that.  Thanks for confirming it for me.

Quote
I commend you on the chop, I have no idea why so many continue to work on taller less attractive trees when a really good smaller tree can be made from a good base.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread when others suggested I do exactly what I just did, I really want the best tree possible.  Hopefully I have time on my side, but I thank you (and others) for advice that is invaluable to me.   I really appreciate it.

Two more questions, the branch that's growing (from the trunk) to the right:  Just let it grow ...or should it be groomed for a future branch?  Also, this tree was repotted the spring before I started this thread (Spring '09 I believe).  The soil doesn't look awful, but I've never allowed a trident to go 3 years between pottings.  I've noticed in other threads 3 years is approaching the limit you let tridents go w/o repotting.  Should I wait on this one as well?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on November 20, 2010, 08:14 PM
I have a whole slug of pictures to add to this thread as well as more info. Have a aThanksgiving party to go to so will add late night.

Three years is optimum for repot. Just use a real granular mix, and lots of fertilizer. This is when high nitrogen is a plus. At this time you want growth and this is a benifit. Later on you can cut back more. Believe it or not I actually fertilized with steer manure as I grew mine out as well as those I am working on now. Just layed tulle (wedding veil netting) on the soil surface and placed it right on the soil. 60 days only! Then just pick up the mess (tulle) and throw it away.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 22, 2010, 04:01 PM
Steer manure?  I bet your neighbors are as fond of you as they are of me and my fish emulsion.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: JRob on November 22, 2010, 09:40 PM
Al,

Ok I'll bite. Steer are castrated male cattle. Is their manure better than other types? Why so specialized?

JRob
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on November 22, 2010, 10:41 PM
Because it tends to be scraped up out of feed/dry lots (concentrated animal feeding operations). As most americans prefer their beef  to not be from cows or bulls (old, tougher, less juicy individuals), they like to think of their beef as coming from steers- let's them avoid thinking about virgin cow (aka heifer) slaughter. Your poo probably has a mixture of genders and ages. See what you learn with 5 years in South Dakota?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on November 22, 2010, 10:44 PM
Hopefully the last post won't be viewed as scatological or full of BS (thet aren't steers).
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on November 22, 2010, 11:09 PM
Actually, 99 percent of all beef for human comsumption comes from bulls. We don't eat cows in America. We milk them.

Thats just what it says on the bag. I don't really think it really matters which gender it somes from as long as it's composted.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Grog on November 23, 2010, 02:42 AM
Love threads like this, full of good information.  These what-the-heck-do-I-do-with-this-raw-stock discussions are what I have to focus on for the most part.  I just came inside from doing some final sealing on my winter storage shed, 18 degrees are the projected low for the night, we'll see if it's sealed tight enough for the tridents. 

On a different note there's only a couple breeds of cattle that are kept for milk.  Beef cattle are much more numerous and their females are slaughered along with the guys. 
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Don Blackmond on November 23, 2010, 09:44 AM
Grog, your tridents will be fine in 18 degree weather.  They can take freezing, and much colder temps than 18.  In my experience, it is the winter wind and a constant freezing/thawing cycle that cause harm.  Freeze them like popsicles and keep them shielded from wind.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Grog on November 23, 2010, 02:42 PM
Thanks Don.  It got down to 16 outside but the shed (actually an old chicken coop by the looks of it, yee haw) only got to 24.8.  I have a thermostat on the way from littlegreenhouse.com but I don't think it's gonna cut the mustard, after reading up the low range it can be set at is 30 F.  Probably should have checked that before.

Sorry if I sidetracked your thread too much Wayne, lots of good info though, thanks.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on November 23, 2010, 10:18 PM
Actually Al, you are wrong again. We don' t eat bulls much in the states. They be castrated, thus steers. In california a good deal of the burgers you get come from those california dairy cows that the rest of us see on TV.

You may be eating Bull, but it isnt beef.
cheers.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on November 24, 2010, 12:54 AM
Must be California Cheese burgers
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 24, 2010, 04:07 PM
I have a whole slug of pictures to add to this thread as well as more info. Have a aThanksgiving party to go to so will add late night.

Al,

Where are the photos?  Would love to have something to look at over the long holiday weekend. 
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on November 25, 2010, 09:57 AM
Got the flu tuesday. Leaving for the coast for Thanksgiving Thu, fri, and Sat. Will be home Sat. night and hope like hell I feel better. Nothing like going away for three days sick.


I'm hoping Sun. is a better day.

Happy Turkey Day, al
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on November 25, 2010, 10:13 AM
Having just dealt with a stomach bug that swept thru my house the weekend preceding a housing move ...where we'd planned to do the bulk of our packing, I can empathize. No rush on the pictures, ...though I'm eager to see them.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on December 14, 2010, 07:45 PM
I have a whole slug of pictures to add to this thread as well as more info. Have a aThanksgiving party to go to so will add late night.

Shameless bump.  Can't wait to see the pictures.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 07:46 PM
Hi Wayne

A trident chop at minimum in my area will take about six years to achieve good results with a the tree starting to get to being shown off. If you start with a good base a few years can be shaved off but still the first chop needs almost three years to achieve a good transition.

While your chop is showing good progress it is not large enough to blend in well enough with the trunk to look powerful. It is not pyrimidal enough. Some may argue that chopping a trident is not always about achieving that sort of form. I always say if you wish to chop a trident, that is the only form you can do and achieve good results. If a person is not going for a sumo style trunk, then why chop? So, I will progress with my photo's based on that assumption. If that is not your intent, maybe these pics may be of some use for others.

On your tree, I have made some lines indicateing where the fist branch needed to be grown to before making the second chop. This is needed for two reasons, one to help heal the first cut, and second, to smooth out the transition between trunk and extending trunk for directional change. extensinn of secondary should go untill the red lines are reached. Second chop at light blue line. Bud at top should be grown out till purple lines are reached. Third chop is made at yellow area. By the time you get to the second chop, you should have some buds around the edge of the chop area that can be chosen for branching. these should be chosen and wired for direction. By the time of the second chop, it may have taken two growing seasons for the first leader to get that big. Remember to keep all suckers and shoots that sprout from the base and let those grow long. Do not cut these all year. In the spring of the year you chop, remove the basel growth reserving a short stub along the trunk, about 1/4 inch or so. Seal these. Let them sprout that year and repeat that process while growing out the second chop. Repeat this process for three years or so untill the trunk is reaching the stage of looking gnarly, which it should with the stubs. The bark will heal over these quickly and add girth thru callous tissue.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 07:50 PM
In this photo, we can see when I made my first chop. The trunks were about 1.5 inches across and were purchased as 10 foot yard trees. They had grown completely thru the five gallon buckets and into the ground.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 07:54 PM
In this picture you can see the growth from one season. The shoots from the base are engorging this area with everything so girth is achieved fast. These stumps went for one more year before the next cut was done.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 07:58 PM
This tree was at the four year mark. As you can see there are still no real branches yet. I was really concentrating on getting the structure set rather then making it pretty. Some branches are grafted and some are shoots. It really just deopends on where they emerge when the growing is taking place. If they come out in a good place I retain them. Keep in mind that no branching should be kept in the upper third of the tree. If anything is kept it should be no. one branch first. That way all the branches will grow in scale. Keeping upper branches first will just have to be removed later unless they are sacrifice branches for closing wounds.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 08:04 PM
Unfortunatly I did not keep a very good record of these trees as I did them. Since these trees had super ugly bases on them as I did this grow out, getting them shoehorned into a shohin pot was going to be a task. I achieved what I needed by doing ground layers in the pot. Every time I did a repot (every two years) I removed more of the base.

here you can see what I started with and what I was able to do to whittle them down. You can see in that last photo just how large that base had grown in four years. That is about 4 to 5 inches across while I started with a tree 1.5 inches across.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 08:17 PM
Branching was started in earnest in the fifth year. Some by grafting and some by bud selection. More grafting will be done this year on the two most progressed so far. I have about thirty tridents in all stages of technique going at once.

These are the two from this chop session started in 2003. These two trees are seven years in training.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 08:21 PM
This tree is from the same bunch , just two years behind.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 08:25 PM
This is the same tree but now it has branches and has been wired. I'm workin on making this double trunk. Time will tell.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on December 15, 2010, 08:36 PM
Al Super. Have you been grafting roots to improve the nebari?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 08:59 PM
All my cuttings are grown up! 1/2 inch already so no, I don't have a scion stock...this year though I will take some and start in the fall on some other trees that need improving.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 15, 2010, 09:12 PM
Like this one.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on December 15, 2010, 09:18 PM
That isone way, the other is just to take roots that you have pruned off, drill, and insert, with a toothpick or chopstick to hold in place...... like a ficus.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 16, 2010, 12:31 AM
Tell us more of this technique. I have never seen this. Is this like a one sided thread graft and do you have to skin the inserted root a little and make sure it touches the cambium? ( I mean, duhh, but I had to ask) This sounds super simple man! I take it that this is a technique that could be used on other easily grafted species like pyracantha, pomagranite and olive?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Dave Murphy on December 16, 2010, 06:54 AM
Great pics/discussion guys.  Al, you've inspired me to do a more radical chop on a trident I did a ground layer on last spring.  John, let's hear more about your root grafting technique...sounds way too easy, which I like.

Dave
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on December 16, 2010, 11:30 AM
While your chop is showing good progress it is not large enough to blend in well enough with the trunk to look powerful. It is not pyrimidal enough.

I'm not sure I follow.  What isn't large enough?  The branch growing off to the left above the chop (which I think you mentioned in a previous reply)?  If that's the case, I concur.  What you can't see is that branch growing tall enough that I could barely fit it into my SUV ....w/ severe bending/wrapping.  I left it long so that I could get as much growth/girth on that branch to allow me to chop it sooner.  I was thinking of using more of that branch than your chalked up picture shows, but I'm happy to follow your suggestions.


Quote
On your tree, I have made some lines indicateing where the fist branch needed to be grown to before making the second chop. This is needed for two reasons, one to help heal the first cut, and second, to smooth out the transition between trunk and extending trunk for directional change. extensinn of secondary should go untill the red lines are reached. Second chop at light blue line. Bud at top should be grown out till purple lines are reached. Third chop is made at yellow area. By the time you get to the second chop, you should have some buds around the edge of the chop area that can be chosen for branching. these should be chosen and wired for direction. By the time of the second chop, it may have taken two growing seasons for the first leader to get that big. Remember to keep all suckers and shoots that sprout from the base and let those grow long. Do not cut these all year. In the spring of the year you chop, remove the basel growth reserving a short stub along the trunk, about 1/4 inch or so. Seal these. Let them sprout that year and repeat that process while growing out the second chop. Repeat this process for three years or so untill the trunk is reaching the stage of looking gnarly, which it should with the stubs. The bark will heal over these quickly and add girth thru callous tissue.

That's precisely what I was hoping for, and way more than I was expecting.  Thanks Al for taking the time to ...essentially walk me thru this whole process.  Extremely informative, ...even moreso after Kirby 'splains more of that root grafting.

Thanks guys!
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Hotaction on December 18, 2010, 12:44 PM
Tell us more of this technique. I have never seen this. Is this like a one sided thread graft and do you have to skin the inserted root a little and make sure it touches the cambium? ( I mean, duhh, but I had to ask) This sounds super simple man! I take it that this is a technique that could be used on other easily grafted species like pyracantha, pomagranite and olive?

Al, I think this should help clear up what John is talking about.  I imagine it is the same technique, seeing as it is coming from an SOB.

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/tropical-bonsai-discussion/ficus-nerifolia-rootwork/ (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/tropical-bonsai-discussion/ficus-nerifolia-rootwork/)
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 18, 2010, 07:53 PM
Compared to the amount of grafts shown just before potting and the shots of the roots exposed it does not seem many took. I wonder what the ratio was. How many inserted compared to how many took. If it was iffy on a ficus it may be impossible on a trident.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on December 19, 2010, 10:20 AM
Actually, the best way to do it is with "approach" root grafts, I was hoping to do on today, but will ave to wait unil after Christmas. Al, you can wait a few days for some pictures......
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on December 19, 2010, 07:21 PM
Damn....approach grafts I have done. This looked really easy and simple. Almost like making tanuki jins!
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on December 21, 2010, 02:58 PM
Al, the little cut off roots inserted into drilled holes, with a little scraping, jammed in with toothpicks/chopsticks below, dusted with rooting hormone, and then very generously covered with soil and sphagnum have a very high rate of taking. If you want near 100%, you need to approach graft.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: garywood on December 21, 2010, 04:44 PM
Hey John,  I shouldn't speak for Al but I think he is thinking of approaching a seedling instead of an existing root that is doubled back and inserted.
I use that method also and I don't think the explanation was clear.
Wood
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on December 21, 2010, 06:21 PM
Wood,
Understand, why I just wanted to do it with photos.

John
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Jerry Norbury on January 14, 2011, 12:05 PM
Is there any update here?

Great post Al - deserves a sticky thread imnsho...
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on January 14, 2011, 11:48 PM
Making roots is always fun!
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Jerry Norbury on January 15, 2011, 04:04 AM
When did you do this Al, recently?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: JRob on January 15, 2011, 06:07 AM
Al,

For those of use who are relatively new to bonsai, please describe the process you are using in the last two photos and what you are attempting to accomplish.

Thanks & Regards,

JRob
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on January 16, 2011, 10:45 PM
The process will be outlined in a new thread.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on January 17, 2011, 08:52 PM
For those of use who are relatively new to bonsai, please describe the process you are using in the last two photos and what you are attempting to accomplish.

While we wait for the promised thread, looks to me like a standard issue air (or ground) layer to improve roots that would probably never make as good of a nebari as this tree deserves.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on February 26, 2011, 11:52 PM
That isone way, the other is just to take roots that you have pruned off, drill, and insert, with a toothpick or chopstick to hold in place...... like a ficus.


I'll have more to report on this technique in the coming months.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on February 27, 2011, 09:05 AM
Sorry to leave you hanging as to WHY I'll have more to report.

4 root grafts in place as of yesterday.  I'll have more to report on their effectiveness/take-rate in a few months.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on March 01, 2011, 10:34 AM
Root-grafting thread on this tree: http://bonsaistudygroup.com/advanced-grafting-discussion/root-grafting-on-trident/ (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/advanced-grafting-discussion/root-grafting-on-trident/)
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on March 10, 2011, 03:09 PM
While your chop is showing good progress it is not large enough to blend in well enough with the trunk to look powerful. It is not pyrimidal enough.

I think I've asked about this particular snippet before, but I don't see a response.

Are you saying my initial chop wasn't low enough?  I heard that recently and initially didn't agree.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: akeppler on March 10, 2011, 09:05 PM
While the initial chop may be high, that is not a bad thing. Trees with a good trunk and aged bark can be a powerful image.

My respose had more to do with the second chop and not lettuing that one get large enough. There is a pretty big disparity between the two and probably not somethingf that will correct itself, even with time.

I have done the same thing, and now I too am wondering what I can do to resolve the problem since mine seems to grow as a unit, hence no thickening above the chop to induce better taper.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: John Kirby on March 11, 2011, 09:19 AM
Al, try grafting back at the junction between the first and second chops.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: Jerry Norbury on June 23, 2011, 12:05 PM
Any update on this?
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on June 23, 2011, 01:29 PM
This tree sat.  ...and sat.  ...and sat some more.  It hasn't done ANYTHING after leafing out initially ...as you might expect after seeing the drastic root reduction.  I noticed this week that its beginning to put out new growth, mostly at the extremities right now, but I hope to get some good budding elsewhere.  Eventually it'll have to be chopped so if I don't get the budding I want now, I'll probably get it then.

As for the root grafts, I have nothing to say.  Since it sulked so obviously and for so long, I opted not to harass it by prodding around to see how the grafts were doing.  I'll have to be patient until late-winter to find that out.  By extension, so will you.
Title: Re: New Trident full of options
Post by: bwaynef on February 28, 2014, 10:27 AM
I finally got around to repotting this one.  Lackluster results, but now I can move forward:
http://bonsaistudygroup.com/advanced-grafting-discussion/root-grafting-on-trident/ (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/advanced-grafting-discussion/root-grafting-on-trident/)