Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Trident Maple Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Jason E on April 17, 2012, 06:05 PM

Title: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 17, 2012, 06:05 PM
Hello,
I purchased this tree a couple of years ago before really knowing what to look for,"still learning"  When I got it it had been chopped recently and I've been working on branches. Just cleaned up the moss on the base of the tree to get a better look at the nebari. It is not the even radial flare you would try to develop by manipulating the developement of the nebari but it is fused into a solid pad for the most part.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: cbobgo on April 17, 2012, 06:10 PM
what that tells us is that this tree was kept in a pot that was too small for too long, which caused the roots to start to circle around.  When it was moved up into a larger pot, it was either too late to straiten the roots out, or whoever did it did not take the time to do so. 

I don't think there is anyway of making this look like the typical radial roots that are prized, short of layering above that mess.

Alternatively, if you like how it looks, you can make it a focal point and expose them even more.  But most bonsai people would not find it very appealing, I think.

- bob
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Adair M on April 17, 2012, 06:42 PM
Take this as an opportunity to learn a new skill:  air layering!
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 17, 2012, 06:46 PM
yeah, learning process. looked better w/ the moss :)
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: cbobgo on April 17, 2012, 07:02 PM
also, these pics are showing the back of the tree.  It would probably look better with the large chop scar in back.

- bob
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: bwaynef on April 17, 2012, 08:26 PM
Also, there's no good excuse for nebari this poor on a Japanese Maple.  They layer so well that you really shouldn't have to look at roots like this for very long.
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on April 17, 2012, 08:31 PM
Also, there's no good excuse for nebari this poor on a Japanese Maple.  They layer so well that you really shouldn't have to look at roots like this for very long.

Psst, trident.  Trident maple.
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 17, 2012, 08:40 PM
probably need to start the air layer process before buds break?
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: bwaynef on April 17, 2012, 08:55 PM
Also, there's no good excuse for nebari this poor on a Japanese Maple.  They layer so well that you really shouldn't have to look at roots like this for very long.

Psst, trident.  Trident maple.

I'm not sure my advice changes now that its an Acer b instead of p.  Thanks for pointing it out.  ;)
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on April 17, 2012, 08:57 PM
That's what I'm here for.  Just trying to keep you honest.  ;)
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Owen Reich on April 17, 2012, 11:32 PM
I will likely be hassled for this, but I like the way that looks.  You could do some thing dramatic with that trunk after layering the top off, or keep the lowest branch and do something novel.  It will look like hell for a long time but one day could be quite interesting; maybe an erratic branch structured semi cascade.....
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: John Kirby on April 18, 2012, 08:14 AM
Tradition says airlayer, I think I am with Owen this time, airlayer the top make nice roots, make sure you have a bud or grafted branch on the bottom and do the "wabi sabi" thing, in this case I am using Wabi Sabi to mean 'This is my excuse to domanything wierd that I want with MY tree". Should be fun. Good idea Owen.
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: 0soyoung on April 18, 2012, 12:41 PM
I'm with Owen. It is like a pug - so ugly it is cute. I think you should try to make it the design focus. The air-layer escape route is always available if you don't wind up with something satisfying.
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: gtuthill on April 19, 2012, 12:38 AM
I quite like it.  My vote is for: air layer the top to get a tree with good "standard" nebari, keep the base to make something interesting and unusual. 

Might start a weird nebari thread  ;)  I have  a few.

Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jay on April 19, 2012, 06:18 AM
Good morning... A question about roots like these. I agree this was left in a small pot too long, but... Will this cause the roots to strangle the tree?  Are there trees which will have a bigger problem with this form of roots?

Hope this question is clear

Jay
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: boon on April 19, 2012, 08:39 AM
i would like to give you a compliment on the way the tree was repotted. 
it looks like you use clay king.  probably bought at bonsai northwest. 
the level of the soil and the pot is excellent.  the level is flat (not mound)  and the level is slightly below the pot. 

position of the tree from the front, it is planted in the center.  from the front bonsai should be placed slightly off to one side.  but for round or square pot, it can be placed in the center of the pot.

you are in Seattle(from your profile).  trident maple grow slower there.  air layering is more difficult.  it will take longer orit may not send out the roots because it is cold.   larger tree in bigger pot will do better because the root will stay warmer during sunny day.  Japanese maple is better material to grow there.

your tree has a lot of problems.  - poor nebari -trunk has almost no taper -trunk has almost no curve -larrge wound.

how long do you want to spend fixing this tree?

Jay,
on maple and some deciduous trees, coil roots and cross roots will fuse and cause no harm to the health of the tree  on conifer, it could be problem.

Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 19, 2012, 09:59 AM
Thanks everyone, Thanks Boon!
I agree the tree has a lot of problems, but since I have the tree I am going to try to improve it.
How long do I want to spend doing that? I have time and room for it.
Any suggestions on direction to improve this tree Boon?
W/ lots of time :)

thanks again, Jason
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 19, 2012, 10:26 AM
P.S. I've got your repotting video boon :)  It and the rest of your vids I have are great!

Jason
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Sulaiman on April 19, 2012, 10:36 AM
Ummm, I guess you a beginner I think you could wedge a stone in that gap and try a roots over rock and try untangle some of those roots.

May I ask what are you trying to achieve with this tree's branches. ;D
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jay on April 19, 2012, 01:02 PM
Thanks Boon for the clarification
Jay


Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 19, 2012, 06:54 PM
Beginner? I guess, I'm light years away from where I was when I started and am dedicated to learning through my local club, books,dvd's, study groups, and I help out at the bonsai nursery near where I live. I purchased this tree when I was a true beginner So have been working with what I have :-\.  Achieve w/ the branches? again working w/ what I've got. My plan for this year was to let themain trunk continuation grow wild then select a new leader and chop when I get a suitable diameter for a better transition from original chop. Might also try a thread graft down lowto start a new tree from the base while layering off the top ? not sure about that yet though.

Thanks again, Jason
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: boon on April 20, 2012, 12:30 AM
Thanks everyone, Thanks Boon!
I agree the tree has a lot of problems, but since I have the tree I am going to try to improve it.
How long do I want to spend doing that? I have time and room for it.
Any suggestions on direction to improve this tree Boon?
W/ lots of time :)

thanks again, Jason

Hi Jason,
thanks for buying the DVDS.

this is what i would do, if you want to keep it.  first let a few branches grow and use it fro approach graft on to the lower part  one become new apex and 2 branches.  keep it as an unusual tree on the bottom.
wait till the leaves harden off (about another 2-4 weeks.  then air layer the top part. 

you can make 2 trees

make cuttings and wire to get some curve and grow it in the ground.  you will have total control of your tree and see what they will be.  and have fun.
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: boon on April 20, 2012, 12:32 AM
Thanks Boon for the clarification
Jay




Jay,
you're welcome
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Jason E on April 20, 2012, 11:37 PM
Thanks Boon, and eveyone.
Title: Re: good nebari?
Post by: Sorce on December 25, 2013, 06:03 AM
Hey Jay,
  I read that somewhere too. I started thinking its just a way for bad treecare contractors to screw you out of money. The root will eventually graft itself back to the tree and or vice versa.

  Let's get an update, see if a swan was born.

Sorce