Author Topic: An over pinched Itoigawa  (Read 23893 times)

M. Frary

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2015, 10:34 PM »
Understand, most of yhe brginner lurkers won't. I like the plan.
    So why doesn't anyone explain it so the beginner lurkers can understand? And maybe not just lurk on the outside looking in.
   Or is it because you guys don't like beginners in bonsai?
    It's because of this kind of attitude to newcomers that you only have maybe 2 posts per day. And it's all just the same guys that are posting on this thread. Patting each other on the backs.
  I thought the lurker challenge was all about getting people who don't post here to do so. But this kind of thing here keeps them away.
   Word.
 

Herman

  • Sr. Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
  • hardiness zone 9a, AHS heat zone 8
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2015, 07:15 AM »
Helloooooo Mike :),

why all the negativity?

best regards
Herman
 

Adair M

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2015, 02:05 PM »
Mike, I just reread this thread in its entirety. Maybe because I am the author of most of the posts, it makes perfect sense to me.

I tried to show what the problems were, what I did to remedy them, and discuss what's to be done in the future.

Owen came on and offered a nice virtual, and I agreed that something like that is my long term goal, but it's going to take some time for the backbudding to occur. Kirby offered encouragement, and also agreed that more needs doing, but only after it recovers.

Now, Kirby and I have the same teacher. That teacher insists that we only "work" on material that's strong and healthy. So, we're on the same page. The things I've done so far are all intended to get it strong for the next step in the process. I want to see the tree replacing the juvenile growth with scale growth. I want to see interior back budding. I want to see runners. Before I start cutting back. Kirby is right, there are way too many redundant branches. But there's no rush to remove them.

If I missed something that newbies should know, please let me know. The purpose of this thread is to educate, not pat myself on the back. Also, if anyone has suggestions on how to improve the tree, or how I can improve my technique, I'll be happy to hear it.
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynn E

bwaynef

  • Administrator
  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1785
  • Thanked: 33 times
  • USDA Zone: 8a
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2015, 04:19 PM »
Understand, most of yhe brginner lurkers won't. I like the plan.
    So why doesn't anyone explain it so the beginner lurkers can understand? And maybe not just lurk on the outside looking in.
   Or is it because you guys don't like beginners in bonsai?

I'll go ahead and call it quits on anymore of this line. 

To recap: Owen said something, then decided to clarify.  Kirby, in reply to Owen's clarification, said he understood what he meant in the first post but others may not have.

What you're wanting clarification on was already clarified before Kirby pointed out (and after Owen himself realized) that it might not have been crystal clear with his first stab at an explanation.

Capisce?

All skill levels welcome. 
Leave the vitriol somewhere else. 
 

akeppler

  • Sr. Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • http://bonsaial.wordpress.com/
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2015, 08:18 PM »
I was looking forward to some more explaining but as usual a stake has been driven thru the heart of lively debate.

I'll check back next year,  probably same thread will be in "new posts"

 
 

M. Frary

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2015, 10:16 PM »
    So...... end of discussion? That's it? Kaput. Finis.
 You explained it so no more to be said on the matter.
 Capisce!
     I'm out.
 

Adair M

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2015, 01:39 AM »
Mike, do you have a specific question about the tree?

Or suggestion?

It's doing well, it will be a while before I get any significant backbudding.
 

bwaynef

  • Administrator
  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1785
  • Thanked: 33 times
  • USDA Zone: 8a
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2015, 09:49 AM »
Oh come on!  Both of you.  I wanted to put an end to the vitriol, which was misplaced.  Not the discussion.

There is an explanation already.  If it doesn't make sense to you, ask a question about it. 
 

Adair M

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2015, 07:44 PM »
Here's a minor update on the progress of the tree. Some runners are beginning to form. I took a picture of bit of foliage where you can see where the juvenile growth is changing back to scale. It's at 5 o'clock on the photo. It's happening all over, EXCEPT up at the apex!

The apex had been sheared more than the rest of the tree. So, there's a lot more truncated tips and stems up there. Before I wired it out, it was very dense. Now, sunlight can get in, and I'm seeing backbudding on old wood up under the crown of foliage. I'm not seeing much of that in the lower portion of the tree.  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 07:47 PM by Adair M »
 

Owen Reich

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
  • Thanked: 7 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2015, 08:18 PM »
Mike, I understand your concern about beginners not understanding.  It would be great if people on here continued to provide links to other pages and blogs that explained techniques.  This has been done in the past by many, including Adair M and Bwaynef.  One issue is that not everyone agrees with the resources suggested.

Many people who post on here regularly study with Boon, so they will likely agree.  I have never studied with Boon.  My opinions are just that.  Yours are appreciated as well.
 

Owen Reich

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
  • Thanked: 7 times
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2015, 08:35 PM »
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/trimming-junipers-during-the-growing-season/

Below are two projects I worked on in the past.  Both junipers below are Juniperus chinensis var sargentii (Shimpaku).  As you can see or hopefully agree with in the photo, the apex of each juniper has grown faster than the middle, and especially lower branches.   

The styling work I did was to recreate each in an image I (and my teacher) wanted.  As restyles go, lots more branch removal and heavy pruning occurred.

In the maintenance phase of working with junipers that precede major styling and also after a juniper that was restyled has "settled" from the rework, shoot thinning or in some cases, pinching will occur.  My experience is that pinching terminal foliage is best carried out the year before and year of exhibiting a juniper bonsai.  Other than that, I never do it for canopy maintenance.  If you are happy pinching your junipers, great.  I do not except at the points in styling phases I mention above.

The juniper Adair rescued had been pinched and sheared to within an inch of its life.  Restyling the juniper in a way that I suggested assumed that the tree would be healthy and growing well much like the two junipers in the "before" photos below.

The only ways I know of to revamp junipers are to graft new shoots onto existing branches or to allow the juniper to grow freely and occasionally shorten the "runner" branches to increase secondary shoot formation.

 

Herman

  • Sr. Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
  • hardiness zone 9a, AHS heat zone 8
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2015, 07:36 AM »
Hello Adair, Wayne, Owen everyone

I have a question if I may?
The buds that seem to sprout from the crotches of branches, I have in the past used these, sometimes, to replace leggy growth, but it looks untidy, do you guys ever use them to shorten leggy branches?

best regards
Herman
 

John Kirby

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2216
  • Thanked: 16 times
  • I really need an opposable thumb...
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2015, 07:03 PM »
So, I view this site as a sort of living document. There is a huge amount of extremely useful information here. However, it is only available if you go and look for it. My assumption is that folks who want to find out more information on a specific topic will read some of the prior threads and find the common themes.

One such theme is don't do major work on weak trees, other than repotting to reinvigorate or some limited pruning to redirect energy. Owen and I were very close on how to move the tree forward. My concern was that a new person, or someone who had limited experience would attempt to prune the tree so hard now because they had seen the recommndation of Owen. A major cutback will happen, but only after the tree has recovered. I know Adair wasn't going to leap. But was concerned others would, my comment to Owen was just a cautionary one, you have to be careful when the opportunity to be taken out of context exists. Trust me it can and will happen.

Read the prior threads, with few exceptions, the logic runs throughout. If someone wants to disagree for sport, sorry I am not interested. Nice progress Adair, as they say, let it grow, let it grow, let it grow.
 

DorianJF

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Easy Going Bonsai
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2015, 07:31 AM »
Hey Adair.

Great purchase and I believe it is going to be a winner again very soon under your care.

I actually think you explained what you were doing nicely and I think the feedback from all is helpful and beneficial.

I personally would love to see more people on this forum but if the lurkers are not going to jump onto the forum and ask the questions, then that is the way it goes.

Keep on updating this thread.  Going to be watching.
 

John Kirby

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2216
  • Thanked: 16 times
  • I really need an opposable thumb...
Re: An over pinched Itoigawa
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2015, 04:19 AM »
So what does a healthy Shimpaku look like? Here is a before and after of a Juniper that Mr. Akio Kondo worked on during a visit to my home this month. Notice the long and strong growth on the branch ends. Akio was pleased with this plants growth, making it easy to work on. For those who don't know Akio Kondo, he was Mr. Kamiya' first apprentice and was one of Boon's Seniors in Japan. He won the Sakufu-ten Professional Bonsai Creators Award this past year, the highest award given to a  Bonsai Professional in Japan.