Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Ponderosa Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Yenling83 on October 21, 2013, 07:05 PM

Title: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Yenling83 on October 21, 2013, 07:05 PM
A few things I’ve been thinking about lately.  I’d appreciate your opinion on these questions below.  I’ve actually never owned a Ponderosa or other high mountain 1 flush pine, so I’m not exactly sure how they would do in my climate which has a relatively short dormant period.  However, I did just get my first one.  Thanks!

1.   Would you ever consider grafting a different type of foliage onto Ponderosa Pine?

2.   If Yes or No what type of foliage would graft on to Ponderosa if you had to?

3.   What do you think about grafting Black Pine onto Ponderosa?

4.   Let’s say you lived in an area where 2 flush pines like Black pine did fantastic, but High Mountain 1 flush Ponderosas just did so so.  Do you think the overall health of the Ponderosa grafted with Black Pine would be better than Ponderosa with its natural foliage?  I’ve heard of California Junipers surviving in Japan when both the foliage and roots were grafter with Shimpaku.      
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Dan W. on October 21, 2013, 07:20 PM
Michael Hagedorn has ponderosa's that have been grafted with both Japanese red and black pine foliage. The trees that have been grafted for some time, and styled, look great. I will be grafting some of my smaller ponderosa's for tighter foliage. If you need to, I'm sure grafting roots would work too... it works for JWP.

You might want to email Michael too.
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Chrisl on October 21, 2013, 08:31 PM
Michael Hagedorn has ponderosa's that have been grafted with both Japanese red and black pine foliage. The trees that have been grafted for some time, and styled, look great. I will be grafting some of my smaller ponderosa's for tighter foliage. If you need to, I'm sure grafting roots would work too... it works for JWP.

You might want to email Michael too.

I look forward to seeing those Dan.  I want to learn grafting for sure.  Are you going to try this next spring? 
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: bwaynef on October 21, 2013, 10:13 PM
1.   Would you ever consider grafting a different type of foliage onto Ponderosa Pine?
It becomes a design decision.  If protocol can't produce the foliage necessary, I'd have to attempt grafting.

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2.   If Yes or No what type of foliage would graft on to Ponderosa if you had to?
I'd consider JRP, another (more) manageable native pine, or JBP, ...probably in that order.

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3.   What do you think about grafting Black Pine onto Ponderosa?
I'm not against it.

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4.   Let’s say you lived in an area where 2 flush pines like Black pine did fantastic, but High Mountain 1 flush Ponderosas just did so so.  Do you think the overall health of the Ponderosa grafted with Black Pine would be better than Ponderosa with its natural foliage?  I’ve heard of California Junipers surviving in Japan when both the foliage and roots were grafter with Shimpaku.  
Pure conjecture, but probably.  On second thought, disregard that.
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: John Kirby on October 22, 2013, 11:50 AM
I have grafted a number of ponderosas, some successfully some not so much. I have a couple with JBP on them, I would really like to get them with a good robust JWP like Miyajima. Guess that is something to try this winter.....

John
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Chrisl on October 22, 2013, 12:24 PM
I have grafted a number of ponderosas, some successfully some not so much. I have a couple with JBP on them, I would really like to get them with a good robust JWP like Miyajima. Guess that is something to try this winter.....

John

John,  Been reading up a bit, and the foliage I've seen used is JBP, JRP, and Scots.  But also read that bulges appear at the graft site due to these three being faster growers than the PPs.  Hadn't thought of that before.  Perhaps JWP might be just the right growth rate..or lodgepole...or pinyon.  All super slow growers. 
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Yenling83 on October 22, 2013, 01:56 PM
I have grafted a number of ponderosas, some successfully some not so much. I have a couple with JBP on them, I would really like to get them with a good robust JWP like Miyajima. Guess that is something to try this winter.....

John

Nice, yes I believe White pine would look very nice on Ponderosa.  They both grow in the high mountains and have natural dead wood created from the elements, it seems fitting to me.  I really like Boon's Lodgepole Pine with grafted White Pine as well.  I'm also a bit concerned that my climate does not quite get cold enough to keep White Pine/Ponderosa happy over the long run, but I'm not sure.  I'm not too differnt than the Bay area, just a tiny bit warmer in winter.   The Ponderosa I recently collected has thick bark plates like Black pine.  It's also a medium size tree and I believe Ponderosa needles would just look relatively large with it.  I think I may graft Black, but I'll think about it for another 1-3 years.  I heard once you go Black you never go back.   

 

       
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: John Kirby on October 22, 2013, 05:14 PM
Yen , why don't you graft JBP roots on yours and then the only sensitive piece is the trunk. Use yhe Kamiya grafts below the soil level.
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Yenling83 on October 22, 2013, 05:21 PM
Yen , why don't you graft JBP roots on yours and then the only sensitive piece is the trunk. Use yhe Kamiya grafts below the soil level.

Great Suggestion Mr. Kirby will do!
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: bwaynef on October 22, 2013, 07:32 PM
Yen , why don't you graft JBP roots on yours and then the only sensitive piece is the trunk. Use yhe Kamiya grafts below the soil level.

Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: John Kirby on October 22, 2013, 07:40 PM
Yes, these are grafts as Mr, Kamiya would have done then. ;D
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: Chrisl on October 23, 2013, 09:26 AM
John, do you have a website by chance that shows this technique.  Nothing came up in a google search of Kimaya root grafting.
Thanks
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: bwaynef on October 23, 2013, 10:56 AM
Yes, these are grafts as Mr, Kamiya would have done then. ;D

Not much I can gather from your (masterful) illumination of the technique, but I found one interesting link depicting a supposed root graft done by someone who at some point was under the tutelage of Mr. Kamiya.  That didn't reveal much, but I enjoyed chasing links through the search.  Either you're busy or this is one of the topics where "the man" must be paid.  (All in due time, I'm hoping.)
Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: John Kirby on October 23, 2013, 03:52 PM
Sorry, very busy. Was teasing young Yen just a bit.

Boon learned a technique from Mr. Kamiya that is an approach graft that involves adding a double set of cuts and resultant flaps that are locked into complimentary flaps on the trunk/branch/root. For roots, the flaps are reversed to facillitate the transport mechanisms of the plant. Sounds vague, sorry. To do this you need sharp grafting chisels, 2, a sharp grafting knife, brads, grafting tape and grafting wax. This is a real extension of the approach graft and utilizes rooted cuttings, or seedlings, with trunks of about 1/4-1/2" in diameter. These new roots have the advantage of being more vigorous than the native roots. Make sense?

Jeremiah, Boon can teach you.

Title: Re: Grafting Ponderosa
Post by: bwaynef on October 23, 2013, 04:21 PM
It does.  That's likely what I saw a picture of.  The details you mention weren't clear in the picture though.