Author Topic: Growing Through a tile?  (Read 4829 times)

LarryAldrich

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Growing Through a tile?
« on: January 05, 2014, 01:45 AM »
Hello, I've been reading in Peter Adams book, Bonsai with Japanese Maples, about growing through a china plate or tile. Any one familiar with the technique? I'm wondering how large to make the trunk hole? Plus any other advice would be appreciated. 
I'm in Seattle spring comes early here and I'm itching to try it.
 

Sorce

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2014, 08:44 AM »
Welcome Larry.

   With a tile, it has to go over branches (if any) (seedling or chopped top = long time) then sit where you want it to begin.

I don't see why you couldn't use a larger tree and cast concrete around the spot. Supported to take the weight off, a little plastic sheet to protect the tree.....

    Then you don't have to wait for the tree to grow to the tile. It will bulge, melt, in one season.

Peter Tea fills a void in a trident with concrete, so you shouldn't have any bad reactions to the heat.
 

John Kirby

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 10:59 AM »
If you haven't done it, don't suggest others try your experiment for you.

The are two different approaches being discussed here. The first is removing the tap root and growing on a solid, root impenetrable object. People have used many things, inverted clay pots, plates, tiles, lumber, etc. In this case, you use roots currently present to form the nebari. This technique is very well adapted fpr use with trees in grow pots or in the ground. A real problem with this technique with deciduous trees, is thatwhen the roots hit the edge of the barrier, they drop straight down and then grow, very, very large. This technique works very well with pines tohelp develop a flared base.

The second technique, growing through a tile, a washer or some other solid barrier uses a very different strategy. Typically you take seedlings, cut off any branches, slide the barrier over the trunk so that it sits in the soil surface. Then cover the tile with 1/2" of soil and sphagnum moss. You can drill whatever size hole you want, but typically 1/4" to 1/2" is common.  In this case, the roots on the seedling supports growth which leads to the trunk swelling, covering the hole and ultimately the formation of roots directly above the barrier. These roots tend to fuse over time leading to the formation of the solid base, with all roots growing horizontally, not downward. You can make very interesting multitrunks or massive base trees by drilling several holes and passing a separate trunk through each.

A variation in the second theme is to strike cuttings and set the cuttings through the holes drilled in your barrier. The cuttings then root, below the barrier. Trunk grows as above, the tree then ground layers itself over time.  You can also do several cuttings through the same tile. This technique was translated and published in Bonsai Today in the 90's.

Have fun, is not instant, but can give you some great results.
 

LarryAldrich

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2014, 12:57 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. 
 

Sorce

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 07:07 AM »
Thank you John.

My apologies Larry, I forgot to mention I am an experimenter, very interested in "time machines".

John,  is an experienced mentor. With sound advice on proven tactics.

  I'll try it if I have time this spring, and share my findings.

Good skill with your JM!

Sorce
 

Sorce

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 07:14 AM »
This is where I read on it, my experiment is based on this method. http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdevelopingclumpformbonsai.htm
 
Good visuals.
 

LarryAldrich

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2014, 01:07 AM »
Thanks for all the information. 
 

Gaffer

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 08:59 PM »
Hi Larry
I was in a bonsai nursery in England a few years ago and they were useing old CD's for anything that would fit. Seemed to work very well. I used to work in the sheet metal trade and what I use now is a flat piece of stove pipe and drill a hole to suit the tree and it works great especially when planted in the vegetable garden.
Good luck
Qualicum Brian
 

John Kirby

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 03:16 PM »
Gaffer, I knew a guy who was using old cds as well . I think he said the country western ones worked :o better........
 

T-Town Bonsai

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 11:44 PM »
This is a tile with 5 seedlings growing through drilled holes.  Picture taken in 09, still on the tile, I think.
Frank

« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:46 PM by T-Town Bonsai »
 

Yenling83

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 12:28 AM »
From my experience which is not a whole lot, it seems that methods where you layer the young tree or trees, then let the roots grow over the object produce okay results.  However, I believe i've seen much better results when the tree is lifted every few years and the roots are worked on.  This way you can uncross, remove down growing and up growing roots and control the size of the roots by cutting back or removing the ones that are getting too large compared with others. 

I think you can still achieve good results using something flat or almost flat, but when I first read that Peter Adams book I thought it was as simple as placing seedlings in tiles or through tiles, planting them in the ground and digging them up once you achieved the trunk size you were looking for.  Another very good technique similar to these which I believe is even better is shown on Bonsaitonight.com.  I plan to do a few like shown in this link.

http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/06/10/the-best-repotting-of-the-year/
 

T-Town Bonsai

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 10:08 AM »
That's what I was going for, experience.  You learn more doing than sitting here talking about it.
 

Frank R.

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 02:41 PM »
I agree sometimes the best way to learn something is to do it. I also feel that it doesn't hurt to get more ideas or advice from people who have done it already. There's nothing wrong with trying to start off with as much info as you can. I am relatively new to both bonsai and very new to the forum. I think there is a wealth of information here from some pretty knowledgable people. Why not take advantage of it??
 

John Kirby

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 03:08 PM »
Yen, I think a combination of approaches works very well. But I think the key point that yiy raise is, you just can't start these, pot them up/plant them out, pay no attention to them expect them to be perfect without additional work. The  'Ebihara Technique" that Jeff W was doing on Jonas' blog is the next step after you get the base started. This can happen fast if you work it right.

I am not a reliable photographer, so I do a lot of stuff that doesn't end up in pictures. Jonas (who is in the same club Ynling and I are in, BIB) runs the bonsaitonight blog and Al Keppler (google him) and Peter Tea ( not as active now that he is scrambling around) are all doing  a very nice job documenting and sharing their work on trees at all stages of development. Worth investing some hours on these sites.
 

akeppler

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Re: Growing Through a tile?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 07:13 PM »
Yen, I think a combination of approaches works very well. But I think the key point that yiy raise is, you just can't start these, pot them up/plant them out, pay no attention to them expect them to be perfect without additional work. The  'Ebihara Technique" that Jeff W was doing on Jonas' blog is the next step after you get the base started. This can happen fast if you work it right.

I am not a reliable photographer, so I do a lot of stuff that doesn't end up in pictures. Jonas (who is in the same club Ynling and I are in, BIB) runs the bonsaitonight blog and Al Keppler (google him) and Peter Tea ( not as active now that he is scrambling around) are all doing  a very nice job documenting and sharing their work on trees at all stages of development. Worth investing some hours on these sites.

Thanks for the plug John, timely to say the least. I just started work on this baby last night. It will be a good start to what should be a great tree. It will require maitenance and work to make it right but work with tridents is very rewarding.

Click on the little globe below my fat head for a link to my blog. There is much reading there on tridents.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:20 PM by akeppler »