Author Topic: When to cut back JBP for backbudding  (Read 5428 times)

Dirk

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When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« on: August 23, 2015, 07:50 AM »
After first styling last fall, and slip potting into a slightly larger container this spring, my JBP was slow.
Now this year's needles are about half the length of last year's.  They look very healthy though.  Even the shoots on the lowest branches have lots of buds.
I think it is save to prune away more branches and to cut back into old needles for backbudding now or next month.
The theory being that the tree will spend the rest of the growing season making buds on old wood.
My teacher  wants to cut back (into old, thus this years needles!) next spring, after needles begin to come out. The theory being that the tree is active and tries to replace the lost growth as soon as possible?

 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 08:23 PM »
I typically work roots first before styling, a year or more apart. The fact that you say it was styled last fall and then slip potted this year it doesn't surprise me that it was slow this year.

Why slip potted? What kind of soil? What are the condition of the roots?

I have found that a healthy black pine will back-bud easily on wood up to 10 years old. If a bud doesn't pop where you want it, grafting is extremely easy.

Though you are in zone 8 and can get away with candle pruning later than me, the end of August is likely to late. If you prune now you'll experience another slow year next year. It will put you two years behind.

Better to feed aggressively this fall and adhere to proper techniques next year.

Can we see a full shot of the tree?
 
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Dirk

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 12:51 AM »
Thanks John,

I did repot because the container was cut down. And the original soil stayed wet to long.
I always understood that cutting back in the fall was to prompt backbudding, and candle pruning in spring for ramification?

Is that not correct in general? Of course I will wait till spring before pruning it. Should that be candle pruning or pruning further back into old needles?
 
 

dirk hoorelbeke

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 06:30 AM »
I'm not a pine expert. The growth is slow but healthy. You slip potted because it didn't dry out fast enough. Original soil is still in place? Cutting back now will take power away and the soil will stay wet longer in winter, leading to the same problems again. You might half bare root next spring to start a new and better root ball IF the tree is healthy enough. More growth will produce more buds. Thin out some needles in fall to let light to the interior buts you might remove branches you don't need, but remember you are cutting away strength to.
 

John Kirby

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 06:33 PM »
Roots first. Get the tree strong, then worry about design. Weak trees shed branches. Fertilize until the end of the growing season. You live in zone 8? Do you have growth starting the end of February or later? Repot around the time of growth starting, bare root 1/2 and place in a rapidly draing, yet moisture retentive mix that does not include organics. Secure the tree well in the pot. Protect the soil from freezing, start fertilizing 4 weeks after transplanting. If you get a strong flush of growth, you can prune back in to prior years (old) needles to release latent buds from inhibition. Do not do to weaker branches. Let weaker brnches strengthen, then return following spring and prune back. Have fun.
 

Dirk

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 12:56 PM »
Thanks for your reply John.
The tree was field grown and dug in spring 2013. I got it end of summer 2013 after it showed that it was growing.
I did a first styling in the fall of 2014.
Movement in the buds starts here by the end of march, beginning of April.  Shoots elongate and needles coming out is may. Around the longest day the needles are hardened of. If we decandle,  we do this by the end of may or early June. Else there is not enough time for the summer shoots to fully develop.
If  I had to do it over again I certainly would start with roots. Now I will proceed with styling it and leave the roots next 3 years. After the first two years in the container very few roots had developed. 
 

DorianJF

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 04:06 AM »
Roots first. Get the tree strong, then worry about design. Weak trees shed branches. Fertilize until the end of the growing season. You live in zone 8? Do you have growth starting the end of February or later? Repot around the time of growth starting, bare root 1/2 and place in a rapidly draing, yet moisture retentive mix that does not include organics. Secure the tree well in the pot. Protect the soil from freezing, start fertilizing 4 weeks after transplanting. If you get a strong flush of growth, you can prune back in to prior years (old) needles to release latent buds from inhibition. Do not do to weaker branches. Let weaker brnches strengthen, then return following spring and prune back. Have fun.
Thanks for the info.  Helps me with my JBP

Good Luck Dirk.  Show us a pic of the whole tree please.
 

Dirk

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 12:55 PM »
 

John Kirby

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2015, 06:40 PM »
the tree has been living off of strength it developed while in the ground. It is losing strength sitting in bad field soil in a pot. Strong trees respond to appropriate technique, weak trees get weaker and eventually die.
 

0soyoung

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2015, 07:00 PM »
This doesn't make any sense to me. Your words indicate the ground is good but the ground soil is bad. Huh?

Were you intending some further explanation?
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2015, 09:22 PM »
Unrestricted growth in the field = good.

Field soil in a pot = bad.

JBP do best in freely draining inorganic soil.
 

Adair M

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2015, 10:18 PM »
Oso, when the tree was in the ground, it had a lot more roots. Most of the feeder roots were cut off when it was removed from the ground and put in the pot.

Let's face it: growing trees in a pot is not "natural". Trees evolved to grow in the ground, where the roots could grow wherever and however they wanted. In a pot, they can't. Every cubic inch matters. So, the roots on a pot have to perform the same task in a very limited space as a tree in the ground with virtually no limits.

So, if a tree in the ground finds itself in an area of poor soil, if some roots find a rich area, they'll extend and grow there. In a pot, they can't. The tree tries, but can only produce circling roots.
 

John Kirby

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Re: When to cut back JBP for backbudding
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 03:21 AM »
Osoyoung,
What works in the ground doesn't necessarily work in the pot. Adair has covered many of the points. Being in a limited space with controlled/potentially limited inputs requires optimization of conditions.

I was going to post a detailed response, go read past postings on bonsai soil (aka planting media) and come bsck if you have any wuestions.