Author Topic: Too much food?  (Read 3697 times)

Jason E

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Too much food?
« on: August 01, 2012, 11:42 PM »
Been feeding this one pretty heavily after a chop down to it's second lowest branch in late winter.
good results, lots of growth(for around here)
the needle tips are yellowing however.
I assume this is due to the fert.
been rotating between fish emulsion and balanced miracle grow at half strength weekly.
too much food? or not a cause for concern?

any advice appreciated.
thanks, Jason
 

nathanbs

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 12:24 PM »
Im dealing with the exact same thing, some less dramatic some more dramatic.  Ive concluded with the help of many people that the root tips dying is causing the needle tips to yellow or die, and in more severe cases, entire needle clusters yellowing then dying.  Root tips are most likely dying because of either fertilizer burn and/or root boiling caused by too large of soil particle size.  Too large of a particle gives you too much air space where the water vapor can get superheated and literally steam cook the roots(courtesy of Ryan Neil).
 

bwaynef

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 02:10 PM »
I'd like to see the science behind that boiling idea.
 

Kajukid

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 08:17 PM »
Might be too much water. Or you started feeding too soon after u did a big cut. U should wait about a month before you start feeding after any big cuts or any cut back. And it could be that you started feeding TOO much at once. But it might be too much water. What kind of soil do you have it in?
 

Jason E

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 08:36 PM »
Thanks guys.
Yellowing didn't start till quite a bit affter i started feeding.
The soil is not the greatest, pumice w/ a little bark mix after being dug from the field.
Could be a bit overwatered, it holds a lot more moisure due to the field soil.
plan on repotting into some good mix in spring and working the roots.
prob let it dry a bit more between watering in the meantime.

jason
 

Kajukid

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 08:57 PM »
Thanks guys.
Yellowing didn't start till quite a bit affter i started feeding.
The soil is not the greatest, pumice w/ a little bark mix after being dug from the field.
Could be a bit overwatered, it holds a lot more moisure due to the field soil.
plan on repotting into some good mix in spring and working the roots.
prob let it dry a bit more between watering in the meantime.

jason
Yup then it is being water too much. Try using a chopstick to see if it's dry or not. Put it the soil as far as u can and pull it out. If it comes out dry, water it. If its damp then leave it. U can alway mist the tree between watering if you think it's over watered.
 

nathanbs

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 12:29 PM »
I could be wrong but my experience with black pines is that when they are being over watered they turn neon green more yellow than when being watered properly. Not just the tips dying like in this case
 

jtucker

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2012, 05:51 PM »
I agree with Nathan about overwatering not being the main problem. In my experience black pines tend to turn lighter green with either too much watering or not enough fertilizer. I haven't heard about the root boiling before, so it would be interesting to see more info on that. Nathan, was this info in a discussion you had with Ryan or did he post that somewhere?
 

nathanbs

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2012, 06:30 PM »
it was during a studygroup with him. Our morning lecture was on soil and repotting. It came up during a discussion about soil particle size and why you should not have too large of a soil particle, with the exception of the drainage layer.
 

John Kirby

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2012, 07:28 PM »
Um, this JBP is in  Seattle, so root boiling  (whatever that is) is most likely not the issue. Lot's of things from shoot tip moths to root rot can lead to yellow tips on needles. The absence of reasonable sunlight could be an issue..... but who knows?
 

0soyoung

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2012, 07:37 PM »
I have much the same thing occurring with JBP in my landscape. Mine could be different, but I have some older needles turn yellow on the tips (not all older needles on the tree, just some on some branches) and eventually browninsh after some time. I also have a golden JBP that is supposed to turn yellow, but mine tend to turn brown on the tips. Again, these could be entirely different things and entirely different from JMEK's issue. As best I can ascertain, the opinion about my golden JBP is that it gets too dry during the winter.

Foliage problems are usually root caused, but I don't know what the problem is. 'Superheated' water sounds like a joke, though. If one grows pines or any plant for that matter, in pond baskets, roots tips die when they begin to poke out of the soil simply because the tips dehydrate and, hence, grow no more. It seems reasonable to me that with too big (whatever 'too big' is) a soil particle, the gaps between the particles will force similar behaviour for the same reason.

Roots grow only when the soil temperature is between roughtly 40F and 95F. Roots die when they are than about 105F (or upto 115 depending upon specie). The soil temperature of a pot in the sun can be quite a bit warmer than the air temperature (stick a 'meat thermometer' in a pot to see for yourself), but 'superheated' doesn't happen - not in the physics/chemistry sense of 'superheated'. While temperatures where JMEK lives are somewhat higher than mine, I doubt that air/soil temperature is at the root (pun!) of his problem. It certainly is not in mine.

My understanding is that needle tip discoloration relates to soil alkalinity, salt/fertilizer OD, air pollution, or heat. Soil compaction or extreme wetness/dryness affects whole needles, not just the tips. I'm thinking that I should try sprinkling a little iron sulfate on the drip zone. JMEK, consider trying a dose or two of Myracid or something else that is mildly acidifying. Alternatively, stop feeding for a little while (salts can build up if your soil has a high Cation Exchange Capacity - soils with high organic content and/or containing zeolite, for example).
 

Jason E

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 12:45 AM »
Um, this JBP is in  Seattle, so root boiling  (whatever that is) is most likely not the issue. Lot's of things from shoot tip moths to root rot can lead to yellow tips on needles. The absence of reasonable sunlight could be an issue..... but who knows?


Funny the weatherman said that it's been something like 900 days since we hit 90 in Seattle. This weekend we might though :)
Thanks all for the great replies/discussion, very helpfull.
John's comment about absence of reasonable sunlight makes me wonder though. How many hrs. of direct sunlight is enough for pines and junipers to thrive?
I have benches in a few areas in my yard, where my pines are get about 8 1/2 hrs uninterupted direct sun. Ideally I'd have them get more but was the best place i had for the bench.
A few of my smaller pines get more sun in a different location.
They all seem to do well w/ that much light but would more hrs, make a big difference?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 12:53 AM by JMEK »
 

nathanbs

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 02:38 PM »
I guess I should have looked at where you were from before suggesting that getting too hot could be your problem. However I am not intelligent enough to know what the climate is anywhere but here, and even that is so unpredictable the second you think you have it figured out you get caught with your pants down.  As far as the criticisms of whether or not "root boiling" is legitimate, challenge Ryan Neil on this topic as it was his thoughts.  Here in southern California its certainly hot enough for it to be more than possible.  Its different in many ways from root bags as the roots only die as the small tip protrudes from the bag.  Not an entire root zone in minutes like in the case of being in a pot with too much air and moisture. Wow I guess I have to be careful of the terms I use.  I used superheated as opposed to super heated or super hot, my definition for it being really freakin hot.  My apologies to those who took a break from their bunsen burner to read this thread.
 

John Kirby

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2012, 03:55 PM »
How is the tree?
 

Jason E

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Re: Too much food?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 06:20 PM »
Thanks for asking.
It is doing great, this years second growth needles seem unaffected.
Just the first push of growth and last years needles espeacially had the problem.

Jason