Author Topic: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?  (Read 3791 times)

Buffrider

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So where i live all my club members suggest a spring and then a fall decandling over just a summer decandling. They say they follow John Naka and Ben Oki with this. But when i get online and about 1 or 2 people where i live they are mostly for just the summer decandling. What are the pros and cons of each? and which would yall suggest for my oklahoma area?
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 11:44 AM »
I've heard rumors of those in hot/humid areas like south Florida can "get away with" decandling twice a year, but I've never seen the results personally or online.  I would be curious to see the results of your club members.  Got any pictures?
 

Buffrider

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 12:27 PM »
well my JBP that i posted on here has been done this way since seed and it is very healthy. We get really hot summers here so thats why i think they do it here. But my other friend says that he does it once. So since im 25 and plan on living here for a while ill just experiment both ways. So i will keep everyone posted on this. I know ill have alot of people on here against me but its all good. There is always gonna be people that think its their way or the highway. I have an open mind to this and everything else. Thats how you get better.
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 01:49 PM »
I would definitely be interested to see the results of the technique.  Please, do keep up posted.
 

John Kirby

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 03:26 PM »
OK Buff, who is telling you to do twice a year decandling in Oklahoma? I just looked a the "Ben Oki Styled JBP" pictures that you posted, I don't see a particularly strong tree (thin, highly crowded and probably soft needles), and I certainly don't see a tree that looks like it has had its candle growth managed very well. I realize that the owner has been less able to manage their trees and that you are going to be able to do a great deal with the tree as you move forward. To do that, however, you will need to manage the tree differently.

I own the Naka Books and treasure them for a number of reasons, the fact that he was first in making a lot of meaningful information available to Americans (and many others), I also enjoy how he documented his vision and progression of trees from common sources and following collection. However, John Naka didn't have the benefit of time- if he had written his books after the widespread dissemination of JBP bud and needle management by the Japanese, he would have written his books (on that topic at least) differently. The field has dramatically advanced since his day, of which I am sure that he would have been proud and fully engaged in promoting.

I lived in western Arkansas for a long time (10 miles from Oklahoma), you can grow JBP extremely well using the traditional Japanese perfected JBP management techniques, as taught by Boon and many others. I tried all of the other stuff, had mixed results and then learned how to do it right. I always like to snicker when I hear people say "JBP are difficult as bonsai, their needles are too long", I had trees at Dallas for the LSBF convention last year and was asked "What cultivar of JBP is that, the needles are almost too short"- the answer- seedling (mine) and I had decandled it too late the previous year by two weeks. This intense desire to recreate what has already been proven to be effective, safe and time saving always confuses me. Summer decandling works incredibly well (Even in Dallas and really hot places), I would suggest that you get Boon's video, practice and get your timing down, and go and show your club member what a good JBP with managed foliage looks like. Don't believe me? Check the threads here on some of the good trees that have been presented.
 

Buffrider

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 04:10 PM »
Well then what would y'all suggest since he has already decandled once this year? Plus I'd rather not piss this guy off cause he is an old guy and we call him Grouchy.
 

John Kirby

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 05:03 PM »
This fall, reduce the number of new candles to two per branch and pull off the old needles- if it has yellow internal needles, pull them as they are probably older than 3 years old and will be senescent this fall. You can make it really strong in a year or two, it should have a lot of fertilizer on it starting in August-September to feed the new buds for next year.

Where are you in OKLahoma (Roughly)?.
 

Buffrider

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 06:05 PM »
Tulsa.

Also I don't know what y'all are talking about this tree not being healthy. The trunk is pretty large and the needles aren't soft at all. A good green color and nothing shows that it's weak at all.
 

John Kirby

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 06:49 PM »
Whatever you say. Good luck.

Try http://bonsaitonight.com/

« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:56 PM by John Kirby »
 

Buffrider

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 10:17 PM »
After talking to y'all and to a bonsai teacher of mine for about an hour today I've decided to finish this year the same it's been done then next late June early June decandle. It does need a repot but it is a healthy tree it just will be a lil better if I follow this. I'm still learning so I'm always open for new ways. I'll be posting this tree in the future.
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 10:07 AM »
If you're serious about Japanese Black Pine I would strongly encourage you to purchase Boon's DVD series.  The complete bundle on Japanese Black Pine is $110 plus shipping, but you could purchase them individually by season if you like.

http://www.bonsaiboon.com/pages/shopping.html

The Naka books are nice, but the information in them is quite old.  New (better) techniques have been developed that are being use world wide with great success.

I find it best before listening the advice of others regarding species, styling, etc., I take a look at their trees to see if they are speaking from experience or just regurgitating information they have read.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 10:11 AM by MatsuBonsai »
 

Don Blackmond

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 10:39 AM »
Tulsa.

Also I don't know what y'all are talking about this tree not being healthy. The trunk is pretty large and the needles aren't soft at all. A good green color and nothing shows that it's weak at all.

I'm not sure unhealthy is the correct term.  It looks more like it was improperly cared for; needles way too long, little interior growth, not much ramification.  These characteristics suggest needle mismanagement and not enough light/sun.  You heard 60 years old, but he probably said 16 years old.  I don't see anything to suggest this is a 60 year old tree; not even the bark.

Having said all that, you have a nice tree to work with and do not be discouraged by what you read here.  Take the advice you see here.  Most importantly, get the jbp Boon videos to see what these people are telling you; you can disregard Boon's techniques if you choose to, but at least check them out before you make that decision.  I think you can get the needles under control in 2-3 years, and you will like this tree much more once you do that.  Lastly, this is your tree now.  Make Grouchy proud by making his former tree better.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 10:40 AM by Don Blackmond »
 

John Kirby

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2011, 12:15 PM »
Here is an old "Oklahoma" JBP that came from near OKC. I haven't taken any pictures of it the last 1.5 years, needs to be rewired, will do so when it is rewired and it will be ready to show. This tree was developed less than 75 miles from Tulsa.....

The health of the tree mentioned here is associated with the "thin needles" can be caused by many things, including Don's suggestions- as well as by fungus, roots, etc. I think that you can make a very credible tree out of this one (The Oki Styled tree) pretty quickly.

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/japanese-black-pine-discussion/yard-pine-jbp-from-frank-kroeker/
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 12:17 PM by John Kirby »
 

Buffrider

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 02:41 PM »
Beautiful tree u got there John.
This tree is most def older then what you think cause he had it styled by ben oki back in 1999 so that 12 years plus the trunk is pretty old looking and the base is pretty wide. I do know JBP grow slow so I believe this is at least 60 years old. But it's all good. This will be show worthy some day. I'll keep it posted as I progress it.
 

John Kirby

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Re: spring and fall compared to just summer decandling....?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 03:26 PM »
Um, JBP grow really, really fast. If you fertilize and water freely. I won't speculate as to age, but 60 is a real longshot. How old do you think these trees are? I'll bet at least one of them is older.