Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Kajukid on November 27, 2011, 11:00 PM

Title: Repotting??
Post by: Kajukid on November 27, 2011, 11:00 PM
When is ahold time of the year to repot JBP?? I watched Boon's video but he doesn't say what time of the year to do it.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: boon on November 27, 2011, 11:17 PM
Jan-Feb is the best time to repot japanese black pine in the bay area.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Kajukid on November 27, 2011, 11:24 PM
Thanks boon
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: PaulH on November 28, 2011, 07:27 PM
HI Boon.
Would that be true for red pine also?
Paul
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: John Kirby on November 28, 2011, 07:39 PM
Yes. JRP and JBP same time.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Billkcmo on November 29, 2011, 06:55 AM
here in Kansas City Missouri I repot in March.     
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Kajukid on November 29, 2011, 10:12 PM
I got another question. If I repot in Jan how long should I wait to decandel? Or what should come first, decandeling or repotting?
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 29, 2011, 10:20 PM
For which tree(s)?  Refined?  In trainng?  Seedling?  For what purpose?

Decandling and other such techniques are typically reserved for more mature trees. It's also typically done at very specific times of the year. There's a lot of information already on the forum. It might be worth looking through the pages (and pages) of information already posted here.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Kajukid on November 29, 2011, 10:30 PM
i have a JBP in training, i want to repot it to get all the soil out and and put it in akadama because its in soil with sand and bark and i want that gone...but i want to decandel it when the time is right to get back budding more and get shorter needles...it has a lot of back bud growing on it right now....but i think i should just repot it...i dont know..i think i'll just repot it and decandel it next year...
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Bonsaiguru on November 30, 2011, 12:04 AM
How about 5-needle pines (JWP)? I was told March-April for the Bay Area.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: scottroxburgh on December 01, 2011, 12:13 AM
Repot into good soil first (do not bare-root), then fertilise to get the growth really strong before decandling.

If the tree is new to you, probably decandle the next year. Often when we acquire a new tree it is very under fertilised and weak. Only decandle when the tree is strong.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Kajukid on December 01, 2011, 08:36 AM
Repot into good soil first (do not bare-root), then fertilise to get the growth really strong before decandling.

If the tree is new to you, probably decandle the next year. Often when we acquire a new tree it is very under fertilised and weak. Only decandle when the tree is strong.
why not bare root? should i bare root only half the root ball?
here's a pic of the tree that i want to repot....i want to put it into a bigger pot and then maybe in the ground in like 2-3 years from now..
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: scottroxburgh on December 07, 2011, 04:15 AM
why not bare root? should i bare root only half the root ball?
here's a pic of the tree that i want to repot....i want to put it into a bigger pot and then maybe in the ground in like 2-3 years from now..

You'll probably kill it if you bareroot it. I'd look at barerooting 1/3 of the rootball each year.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Mozzy on December 07, 2011, 06:33 AM
Can only say for UK based weather conditions. I repot both Black and White Pines nearer to late Spring which here is around mid to late April; sometimes I go into May. It is difficult to be overly precise on dates et al, as weather can be quite different from year to year, hence the tree is the best guide to precisely when.

Bareroot as has been mentioned would not ever be a consideration for me. Indeed normally I would only prune hard a maximum of 50% of the rootball. The following repot say in two years (talking large stock now) would see the balance of pruning completed, then I'd leave for between 4 & 6 years; again, I am talking about larger stock.

Whilst mycorrhizal fungus is of great benefit to Pines; indeed one could say they will not survive without its presence, you should not throw caution to the wind just because you have it. Yes, it generally signifies a very healthy tree, but this can also work against you by simply having too much within the rootball area. You should check water is getting through and more still, draining correctly. I have inspected many pines over the years with water penetration difficulties and in almost every instance it has been down to an over abundance of this hugely beneficial fungi.

I've waffled, sorry.

Final word then; keep it on the dry side prior to repotting. It will make the task so much easier, and you should find (if correct medium has been used) the old soil will simply fall away after careful dibbing of the root ball complex. This aids the process and prevents unnecessary root loss. I said about percentages of removal. There are exceptions and that is when you find much dark brown almost black roots. These need to be removed to create space for new feeder systems to generate.

Mozzy
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Treebeard55 on December 07, 2011, 08:24 AM
why not bare root?...

You'll probably kill it if you bareroot it. ...


I know I reveal my ignorance on this point, but would you mind explaining a little more why you would expect that?

And would you say the same about Scots pine (P. sylvestris?)
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: bwaynef on December 07, 2011, 09:15 AM
I'll let Scott speak for himself, but pines balk at the idea of bare rooting.  It could have to do w/ Myccorhiza ...or it could just be that you end up damaging too many fine roots in one fell swoop.  (Ir)Regardless of the why, its a bad idea.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: John Kirby on December 07, 2011, 10:22 AM
Imported trees to the US are bare-rooted- pines and all. You can bare-root Pines, however the odds of a bad outcome are orders of magnitude greater than if the tree is handled more carefully with a "sectional" barer-ooting, where the roots are cleared of old soil 1/4-1/2 of the tree at a time. I bare root young, rapidly growing pines frequently, to get them out of organic based commercial growing medium, after they have been dug, collected, etc. You need to protect them, keep them appropriately hydrated and not be surprised when once in a great while you lose one. A lot is determined by how strong and healthy the tree is before you change it out, old, perhaps slowed bonsai, I would think long and hard about. I would also suggest that you work with someone who has done this before, if you decide that you must try bare-rooting pines.

Chris Johnston wrote a little article that showed how we bare-rooted a fairly large and cumbersome Ponderosa Pine that had been collected a number of years earlier and left in its duff, it was given to me by the collector, it is now thriving (my wife and I just lifted it on to a winter storage bench last weekend. Note While we rinsed the roots gently, did not power wash or use a high pressure nozzle like we might have with tridents or other farm grown deciduous trees.

http://bonsaikc.com/advanced-techniques/dealing-with-difficult-roots/ (http://bonsaikc.com/advanced-techniques/dealing-with-difficult-roots/)
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Chrisl on December 07, 2011, 12:16 PM
Great article John!  I have one question, not about the 'square roots method', but one of bark protection.   I bought two collected (2010) Ponderosa Pines from Jim Doyle and Walter Pall last weekend.   Both with fantastic and flakey bark.  Do you have a method to protect the bark when handling it so for the repotting?
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: John Kirby on December 07, 2011, 12:41 PM
It is easy- don't touch the bark. Period. John
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Chrisl on December 07, 2011, 12:48 PM
LOL  That just seems easier said than done on large awkward specimens.  But I hear ya John.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Treebeard55 on December 07, 2011, 03:32 PM
Hmmm ... maybe I know now why I lost a Scots pine this spring.
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: John Kirby on December 07, 2011, 03:55 PM
Why Steve?
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: Treebeard55 on December 07, 2011, 04:18 PM
John, I got the tree from Meehan's in August '09. It went thru two winters in good health. I repotted it in early April; the candles were elongating, but not starting to open yet. I put it into a 3:2:1 mix of scoria, bark and Turface.

I did bare-root it, to get all of Meehan's old mix off. (There was a distinct difference in particle size; my mix was coarser, overall.) I tried to be gentle with the roots, but may not have been as gentle as needed.

I gave it good aftercare, I believe: partial shade, misting, extra care in watering. It looked OK for a month or so, but growth never resumed, and the foliage eventually began to die. From there it was all downhill.

I've been at a loss to explain why it died. One possibility I considered was that I had left voids in the mix that let roots dry out. But from what has been said here, I wonder if I simply manhandled the roots too much.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Repotting??
Post by: John Kirby on December 07, 2011, 05:09 PM
Without being there it is tough to say, however being too hard on the roots is a possibility. As we have discussed in the past, I have been taught to essentially work in quadrants or halves in removing soil from pines in bonsai pots. If your tree was a little stressed or weakened, it may have not been able to recover from having a large portion of its roots slowed down by repotting. I guess it is best to look at it as an opportunity to learn and get the next one just right.