Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Dirk on March 19, 2012, 06:14 PM

Title: repotting JBP
Post by: Dirk on March 19, 2012, 06:14 PM
It will soon be time to repot my JBP from its nursery container into its first bonsai pot.
I desperatly want to get rid of (all) the organic soil that stays wet and is grown over with things i don't want to find in a bonsaipot.

My question, can i safely bare root this (in my opinion young) tree to remove all of the organic soil?

I've been reading an article that states "clean out half of the roots first and with the next repotting the other half".
The pictures with that article show a white pine (on JBP roots) that has its roots completely washed clean. (Stone lantern's Pines)

Who can tell me what is safe to do?

Thanks,
Dick
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Yenling83 on March 19, 2012, 07:29 PM
I think bare rooting half is a good way to go with this tree.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on March 19, 2012, 07:32 PM
it looks very healthy. bare roots will be fine and somewhat normal when you do it at the right time(now). The half and half method might better apply to a very old tree with a very fine flat root pad that is now become very old and crusty and more sensitive to root pruning. remove as many of the downward underbelly roots as you feel is safe. you would be surprised how many roots can be removed from a JBP this time of year
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 19, 2012, 08:07 PM
I would not call this a "very" healthy pine.  Soil looks to be very bad.  If it were mine I would stick to half/half.  That would be safest.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: John Kirby on March 19, 2012, 08:59 PM
I too would stick to doing 1/2 of the tree, but would certainly cutoff the bottom 35-40% of the rootball. Plant in a coarse rapidly draining yet moisture retentive soil.

Good luck, guess you can tell who the SOBs are.

John
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on March 19, 2012, 10:00 PM
I would not call this a "very" healthy pine.  Soil looks to be very bad.  If it were mine I would stick to half/half.  That would be safest.
Soil does look bad(reason for repotting) however needle color and swelling buds are both indicators of a healthy tree. I guess better be safe than sorry especially since the vote is 4 to 1. I would hate to be wrong after arguing about it. Personally i have never lost a black pine that was this health or better without having to do a half and half repot.

John are you inferring that im a son of a ***** because i personally feel that this tree can be safely bare rooted? keeping half of the rootball in this poor soil in my opinion is riskier than the complete repot. Now you will have half fast draining soil with half concrete. How much water do you think the concrete portion will receive this next year. In addition how do you repot next year without disturbing the fresh roots from last years repot?

I think its clear who the SOB is. Thats 2 for 2 now John. Keep your foul mouth to yourself.


[mod edit: consider this a warning.]
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 19, 2012, 10:04 PM
SOB = Student of Boon.

Please keep it civil.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: bwaynef on March 19, 2012, 10:06 PM
Wow!  That got out of hand pretty quickly.  Its safe to assume on this board, and many other American-based/-heavy internet bonsai discussion forums that SoB refers to Student of Boon.  John & John & Yenling all are.  Their votes were in keeping with each other's, ...and likely the same as their teacher's would be.

I won't speak for Kirby, but I didn't read any malice into that post.  You probably shouldn't either.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on March 19, 2012, 10:08 PM
holy moly! Can i please edit that! IM so sorry so sorry so sorry. :o
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on March 19, 2012, 10:09 PM
sorry im not hip enough to know what the current meaning of SOB is. Sorry about the mix up.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: John Kirby on March 19, 2012, 10:12 PM
SOBs are Students Of Boon (Yenling, Matsu, Me).Ask em.


Self edited.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Dirk on March 20, 2012, 01:12 AM
Thanks for your input.
I'm sorry that my simple question caused such a fight amongst you!

I'll let you you if my tree survived!!!

Dick
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: John Kirby on March 20, 2012, 07:58 AM
Dick,
No fight, just a slight misunderstanding. Good luck, if you haven't seen Boon's repotting Black Pine Video, I will put in a plug at this time. Google Bonsai Boon, go from there.

The point we all failed to mention is that once you have the tree cleaned up during the first repotting, be sure to securely wire it in to the pot. There are several representations of this here and elsewhere on line. You want the tree to be securely attached to protect young new roots.

Post pictures as you go.

John
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: scottroxburgh on March 21, 2012, 08:38 PM
A detailed description of securing a tree into it's new pot:
http://bonsaitonight.com/2009/12/18/repotting-a-trident-maple-securing-the-tree-in-the-pot/ (http://bonsaitonight.com/2009/12/18/repotting-a-trident-maple-securing-the-tree-in-the-pot/)

and a great one on wiring the pot up:
http://bonsaitonight.com/2012/02/24/how-to-wire-a-bonsai-pot/ (http://bonsaitonight.com/2012/02/24/how-to-wire-a-bonsai-pot/)
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: mcpesq817 on March 22, 2012, 01:53 PM
I've repotted similar JBPs (in terms of size and development) before that were in really bad soil, and have always had success practically bare rooting the tree (maybe up to 85-90% of the original field soil).  I probably wouldn't do that with older developed material, but I think material like this is a bit more tolerant.

Just my opinion and experience.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Dirk on March 25, 2012, 02:20 PM
In every bonsai forum there is that one guy that askes advice and says: I still do it may way. It was never my intension to be that guy, yet...

I'm sure I killed my JBP.
Repotting was too early. The buds were nicely swelling, but the roots showed no sign of activity.
Soil was a mess. Not only organic nursery soil but also thick heavy clay.
Chose my pot a little to small and was foolish enough to take of more roots than I intended.
I'll keep it watered and shaded and hope for the best.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on March 25, 2012, 10:02 PM
definitely not too early. Should be fine.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Dirk on May 18, 2012, 01:59 PM
Weel,
I was hopefull for two months, but my pine looks awful.
The butts did not move any further after the repot.

I know I should have this and I should have that.
I wonder now how I could have been so stupid and impatient: If it takes a good ten years tob devellop a tree, then how come I could not wait for two months to repot. And certainly not in one go in such a small pot.
Quess I learned my lesson!
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: John Kirby on May 18, 2012, 02:16 PM
Still. alive patience. You shocked it pretty good. Let her sit and add a little fertilizer. Good luck. John
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Dirk on May 18, 2012, 02:34 PM
I very much hope you're right John.
Thanks for your quick reaction.
I really was (am) convinced it's dead??
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on May 18, 2012, 07:32 PM
its still a healthy shade of green so follow Johns instructions and Ill add to not do any candle or needle pruning this year as that could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Adair M on June 01, 2012, 07:09 AM
If it's any consolation, I have a JBP that looks much worse, and I just noticed today that it is FINALLY starting to show some growth.  I aquired it over the winter, and treated it like my others (well, a little lighter on the fertilizer), but it just sat there.  My other JBP have lush dark green growth.

Don't give up on it yet!  I'd put it out in the sun.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Chrisl on June 01, 2012, 11:13 AM
We all make mistakes Dick, and I also agree with John.  Water and feed and be patient.  Looks like it'll survive to me.

I overwatered a JBP that was half soil and half turface thinking it could tolerate daily watering like my trees in 100% turface=> I ended up with a disease called Adelgid.  Lost a lot of needles off the new candles before treating it.  I set it back, but it'll live.  A lesson learned for me too. 

As long as we learn from our mistakes, in the end, we'll be better horticulturalists and make better bonsai.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: John Kirby on June 01, 2012, 12:45 PM
Chris, the Adelgids can hit strong trees too. That is why I use a systemic to preempt them (and the Shoot Tip Moths) in the spring and fall.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: nathanbs on June 01, 2012, 01:17 PM
John what do you use as a systemic? Is it just an insecticide or is it like a Bayer 3-in-1.  If it is a 3-in-1(insecticide, fertilizer, fungicide) does it seem to affect the michorrizae (spelling?)
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Chrisl on June 02, 2012, 01:08 AM
Chris, the Adelgids can hit strong trees too. That is why I use a systemic to preempt them (and the Shoot Tip Moths) in the spring and fall.

I did that too this spring, but before I bought the tree from Brussel's and didn't think to treat it.  Now I know to treat new stock.  Thanks for the tip though, I wouldn't have thought of treating in the fall.  I hope all the infected candles won't die off. 

Once I got it healthy again, do you think I should cut off the infected candles?  I'm thinking not, maybe new buds will form on the remaining candle?  What would you recommend John?

btw, the trident is coming along nicely  ;)
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: John Kirby on June 02, 2012, 06:23 AM
They are growing and should transport the systemic well. Candles that look odd, twisted, shriveled, excessively long, just cut thm off at the base, about 1/4" past the last old needles.They will pop back with new healthy summer candles- just don't pull needles or wait too long if you are trying to grow out additional size or or length on the branches involves.
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Chrisl on June 02, 2012, 12:06 PM
Thanks John, that helps a lot!

Chris
Title: Re: repotting JBP
Post by: Dirk on September 08, 2012, 11:23 AM
Hi guys,

This is how my black pine looks today.
Not much hope anymore
Just one or two buds that doesn't look completely dried out.
I'll keep it till the last needles are falling of, against better judgement

Don't know where the beautiful pine from the last picture comes from, but this was the image I had in mind.......

Dick