Author Topic: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!  (Read 3663 times)

jtucker

  • Jr. Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« on: November 12, 2011, 12:56 PM »
Hi All,

I'm kind of embarrassed because I feel like this and the other JBP are all out of sorts. I got this from the club raffle about a year and a half ago, and have really just been watering an fertilizing without any idea of what to do. This year, I decided I would try to work this tree. I cut candles in July, and put a little wire on in October when I thinned out some of the summer growth.
Since this is basically the first season this guy has had any training and he's not on a schedule that remotely resembles any "standard" way or working JBP, I'm kind of lost as far as pulling needles this year or what to let grow out or not... I've left that bottom foliage on just to help thicken the trunk a bit (I think this is a good idea?). Any help you all could offer would be greatly appreciated!


PS, I do plan on bringing these trees to my club meeting tomorrow to get input from more experienced folks there. AND sorry for the hasty pics, I was trying to get some in between rain showers. We San Diegans don't know what to do when that weird water stuff comes from the sky!
 

cbobgo

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2011, 01:15 PM »
similar to my reply to your other post, there is really not much to do to this tree except let it grow.  You should not be removing candles on a young tree like this.

- bob
 

jtucker

  • Jr. Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2011, 01:25 PM »
Do you think a slip pot into a wide, shallow training pot would be acceptable at this time or wait until early spring?
 

MatsuBonsai

  • John Callaway
  • Administrator
  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2011, 08:07 PM »
If it were mine I would probably wait until Spring and do a proper repot, giving you a chance to sort out the roots early and work to develop good nebari.

What did your club members have to say?
 

jtucker

  • Jr. Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 09:34 PM »
Club meeting is tomorrow, will keep you all posted...

Not being flippant or combative, I've heard and read from many experienced and talented people, that great bonsai must be grown and trained as bonsai from the beginning. Yet with all of the sticks in pots (including these two trees I've put up), the advice from the more experienced and talented folks is "stick in in the ground or a bigger pot and just let it grow for a few years..."

Are there intermediate steps that can be done to make a stick-in-a-pot more resemble a bonsai during this growing out phase?

I think it's especially tricky for pines. While the techniques that we all read about for pines (decandling, needle pulling, etc.) are for already developed trees as you say, when there's an older tree on which these techniques haven't applied, everyone says, "This tree could have used more training when it was younger. Foliage is too far out, no ramification, etc."

I feel like this is a big conundrum that is a very difficult gap for beginners to cross...
 

Judy

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 08:08 AM »
Jtucker,
I've always taken that saying to mean that you train the tree to be a bonsai from the start even while it is in the ground growing girth and roots.  There are a lot of things you can do to shape the tree to be bonsai while ground growing.  Putting the roots on a board or tile is very advantageous for having useable roots once you get to a pot stage.  Also there is no reason you can't shape and prune for shape while ground growing.  Now of course, you do have to let the tree have it's head to put on growth, but you can pick and choose branches to keep, and do shaping and pruning on some of the important ones.  Take a look at bonsai4me, and you'll see that Harry shapes a lot of his trees even before collecting. I believe that this is the meaning behind the words.
Best,
Judy
 

MatsuBonsai

  • John Callaway
  • Administrator
  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 08:39 AM »
"Training" can include a variety of things.  Decandling, pinching, and needle pulling are typically reserved for more refined trees.  They can be applied as needed to specific areas of a tree in training. 

Shape and taper are important to introduce early.  Shape can be added with wire.  Taper can be gained by growing and cutting back.  Allow a leader to grow while pinching low strong growth early in the season.

It can be a bit frustrating as there's no written rules as every tree is different.  But, with a little understanding of how the tree grows and applying that knowledge to the tree it becomes easier.
 

cbobgo

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 12:16 PM »
There are training techniques that should be applied throughout the lifetime of a tree, but the techniques used at one stage are not the same as those used at a different stage.

The training this tree needs now is letting sacrifice branches grow long, to build girth in the trunk.  Getting the roots evenly spaced out and coming out instead of down, to establish good nebari.  Preserving all low branches and buds to be selected in the future for final branches.  Establishing the direction and flow of the trunk movement, either through wiring or trunk chops. 

Branches that are not being used as sacrifice growth, and you think might be usable for the final tree can have some work done on them.  But you have to be able to predict what the tree is going to look like 5 or 10 years down the road to know if you are wiring them into the right place or not.  That can be a little tricky for newbies, so that's why I usually say don't worry too much about branch training (except for leaving all low branches intact) until the trunk is well established.

- bob
 

scottroxburgh

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 08:53 PM »
The best money you will ever spend on learning JBP techniques...
http://bonsaiboon.com/pages/shopping/shopping-jbp-bundles-retail.html
 

akeppler

  • Sr. Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • http://bonsaial.wordpress.com/
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2011, 03:52 PM »
For my money..

I would enjoy seeing some trees shown from seedling to speciman bonsai and the techniques employed to manage sacrifice branches and developing taper.

Most of the trees I see posted on forums are trees purchased in an advanced state of growth or imports that are managed. So much information gets thrown about, in regards to developing black pines while the real mastery has more to do with how to grow one from seed.

For instance I hear people talk of pines in their collection and talk of their technique, but do they really know how to "grow" a pine rather than "refine" a pine?

I believe the latter to be exclusive of the fomer.
 

jtucker

  • Jr. Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 05:41 PM »
I agree with Al about that elusive middle chunk of time and technique between "Stick it in the ground and grow it out..." and "Do x,y,z to refine and maintain a mostly finished tree..." Any thoughts?
 

John Kirby

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2216
  • Thanked: 16 times
  • I really need an opposable thumb...
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 08:20 PM »
So, a good Japanese Black Pine takes 50 years or more to get truly spectacular bark, little crappy ones  (like some of mine and others) can have mediocre bark in  15-20 years. So, the only good trees are the ones grown from seed? I have planted seed and dug trees for years. The really hard part is refining them to a density and degree of fine branching that truly suggests age. Some of Boon's old trees exhibit truly fine bark and foliage. Personally, for small trees, the recovery time from field growing is so significant, you are much better off growing the in pots.

So, try and refine a JBP, a big rough and  unhealthy one. Oh, by the way do we need to start our Caufornia or Sierra or Rocky Mountain Junipers from seed? Methuselah may be able to do it, the rst of us, not so much.

John
 

MatsuBonsai

  • John Callaway
  • Administrator
  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Thanked: 6 times
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2011, 08:30 PM »
I've post my Big JBP #84 here before.  While I didn't start it from seed, I did purchase it as a trunk with a few key branches in the right places.  More branches are being grafted and refinement has started on others.  The bark is already starting, and in another decade or so it should be really good.  I'll post updates in the Spring. 

I've got a few others in various stages that have been in colanders for 2-5 years.  I'll post some of those in Spring as well.
 

scottroxburgh

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 09:16 PM »
I agree that growing quality JBP from seed is true mastery and with no imports into Australia, almost the only way to get quality JBP stock.

While I cannot provide personal info, I am currently using what I can scrape together. I am sure that most here have seen this, but here is a start...

http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/07/01/how-to-create-seedling-cuttings-japanese-black-pine/
http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/04/22/how-to-repot-a-young-japanese-black-pine-1-of-2/
http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/04/26/how-to-repot-a-young-japanese-black-pine-2-of-2/

I think one reason that most do not post on it, is that a lot of it is growing time. There has to be a lot of dedication to education to bother writing it up for others.

My understanding of the process is that a number of the 'refinement' techniques also apply to developing high quality stock, such as needle thining, root work etc. The best explanation of managing sacrifice branches I have seen is to remove them when they have done there job ;) I think another technique not highly published is culling poor performers.

There are a number of articles on here and the interweb.
 

akeppler

  • Sr. Forum Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • http://bonsaial.wordpress.com/
Re: Raffle Table JBP... HELP!
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2011, 10:25 PM »
Thanks Scott, but still we have a "how to" on making cuttings from seedlings, and then going to repotting seven year old material with sacrifice branches and good taper and the good start to branches.

How about the seven years in between?