Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: TimC on November 25, 2012, 07:13 PM

Title: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: TimC on November 25, 2012, 07:13 PM
Just got some black pines, and need to know if I should wait to report.  They are currently in plastic pots which clearly look root bound.  Comments, suggestions?  it is currently in the 60-70's during the day, in in the 40 - 50's during the night here in texas.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 25, 2012, 07:16 PM
pictures are the olnly thing that get things stared around here. thats from what i have learned its like fishing you need bate
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: dre on November 25, 2012, 08:04 PM
i say to wait till spring to repot as pines get there strength from there roots and some say it's ok to repot before winter but i've done all my pine repotting in the early to mid spring
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Dave Murphy on November 25, 2012, 08:05 PM
Where are you in Texas and when does spring typically arrive for you?  The best time to re-pot is typically right as the buds begin to swell, and winter are frosts and freezes are unlikely.  Texas is a big state, so that could be January to April.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Markyscott on November 25, 2012, 11:32 PM
Here in Houston (zone 9b), January and February are the months that I typically repot black pine.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 26, 2012, 12:50 AM
Believe it or not your Jbp are probably better off in those nursery cans filled with dirt than you think. Unless you've mastered black pines you'll be frustrated to find out that the healthiest you'll see one of your black pines is when you first buy it and it's in one of those cans with dirt. Just don't water it very much. With that said make sure you get your soil mix straightened out and wait until spring. If possible buy/watch Boons video on repotting Jbp in the meantime
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: John Kirby on November 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
Also, in the Houston Bonsai Club there are a number of good people who can help you, lie John Denton and Ron Smith. And, lie Nathan said, Boon's repotting DVD is great.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: bwaynef on November 26, 2012, 01:14 PM
Believe it or not your Jbp are probably better off in those nursery cans filled with dirt than you think. Unless you've mastered black pines you'll be frustrated to find out that the healthiest you'll see one of your black pines is when you first buy it and it's in one of those cans with dirt.

How so?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 26, 2012, 03:37 PM
i think they tend to be so healthy in a tall can of dirt for two reasons. 1)being from a nursery they dont get watered too much(usually) and 2)i really think JBP like very little airspaces in their soil.(specifically if you live somewhere that can get over mid 90's.) I learned this the hard way as I lost a few really nice trees this year that were in boon mix but 1/4"-1/2" or larger particle size. All of my JBP that were in approx 1/8"-1/4" did just fine. Ryan Neil seemed to think it was due to the roots cooking because there is too much room for vapor. He recommends under 1/4", I think 1/16"-1/8" I will have to check my notes.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 26, 2012, 04:33 PM
For roots to cook, won't the temp insode the pot have to be at boiling point? I don't buy that...what can happen is when the air spaces in the soil are too big the roots dry out faster, if fine root hairs dry out completely you can kiss them good bye...I've seen it many times here in the hot african sun, with many species besides pines...if you want to be technical about it. You'd have to work out the atmospheric pressure inside one of those air spaces to calculate boiling point I guess...that's going way too technical...because that would mean the smaller those spaces are the higher the pressdure and the lower boiling point will be,which means the smaller your spaces the more likely your roots will cook...which disproves Ryans hypothesis...like I said...bigger air spaces leads to roots drying out faster and it can also lead to dead spaces in soil, roots can't take up water from air.

Herman
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Markyscott on November 26, 2012, 07:44 PM
Anecdotal, I know.  But the summer of 2011 in Houston was the hottest on record with 46 days over 100 degrees including 24 days straight in August.  The average temperature during the month of August was 90.4 degrees - the highest average since records started being kept in 1892.  And it was dry - 2.44" of rain for the summer was the statewide average.  Mostly it was just brutal.  If I go through another summer like that, I'm heading north and won't look back.  But I'm not all that sure the black pines would be as happy about that move as I.  During that summer, my pines were in Boon mix (sieved to the 3/8" - 1/4") fraction and in what passes for full sun in my back yard (about 6hrs in the afternoon and partial shade in the morning and evening).  I had to water 3 times a day, but I can tell you that the pines came through that summer a lot better than I did.  In fact, they grew about as strong as I have ever seen them grow.  One can't make a mistake with the watering under those conditions, but, well-watered black pine in boon mix can definitely thrive in high heat.  It's was me that didn't.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 26, 2012, 10:18 PM
That just makes me go back to the drawing board then. The only difference in my dead trees and living trees was the soil size. Watered them the same, never let them dry out but only needed to water once a day, if anything watered too much as the akadama was never allowed to turn light in color lower than 1" below surface.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 26, 2012, 10:23 PM
For roots to cook, won't the temp insode the pot have to be at boiling point? I don't buy that...what can happen is when the air spaces in the soil are too big the roots dry out faster, if fine root hairs dry out completely you can kiss them good bye...I've seen it many times here in the hot african sun, with many species besides pines...if you want to be technical about it. You'd have to work out the atmospheric pressure inside one of those air spaces to calculate boiling point I guess...that's going way too technical...because that would mean the smaller those spaces are the higher the pressdure and the lower boiling point will be,which means the smaller your spaces the more likely your roots will cook...which disproves Ryans hypothesis...like I said...bigger air spaces leads to roots drying out faster and it can also lead to dead spaces in soil, roots can't take up water from air.

Herman
You don't think roots can get killed at let's say 150 degrees. If I can cook an egg in an empty pot in the sun then why can't I cook roots in the pot? What you are missing is with smaller soil there is a lot less vapor and more liquid moisture. Does anyone know what boon recommends for particle size? Ryan is super adamant about the particle being smaller than 1/4"
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Markyscott on November 27, 2012, 12:14 AM
That just makes me go back to the drawing board then. The only difference in my dead trees and living trees was the soil size. Watered them the same, never let them dry out but only needed to water once a day, if anything watered too much as the akadama was never allowed to turn light in color lower than 1" below surface.

For an inorganic substrate such as boon mix I think it is very difficult to overwater, but it makes it very easy to drought a plant. And a finer grain size definitely improves water retention.  So, if you've found a combination of grain size, substrate composition, and water/fertilizer frequency that works for you, you should stick with it.  I'm just offering the observation that my pines in Houston, with my substrate composition, and my level of watering seemed to fair OK at the miserably high temperatures we saw in 2011. 
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2012, 01:03 AM
Because Nathan...a bonsai pot is not a cooking pot, one is metal the other clay and filled with water and soil mix...we get 45 degrees celcius over here...what is 150 degrees in farenheit...100 farenheit is about 36 celcius...thats mild heat around here...
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 27, 2012, 01:14 AM
45 degrees Celsius is like 113 Fahrenheit nowhere close to 150 but in any case if your air temp is 113 then the temp in a pot or on the ground could even surpass 150 Fahrenheit. Definitely hot enough to kill roots. You missed my point I wasn't talking about a metal cooking pot. I was talking about an empty clay pot sitting in 100+ degree heat is hot enough to cook an egg
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2012, 01:30 AM
LOL LOL, Nathan do you realise that 150 is 65 celcius, no living being could survive 65 for long....anyhow...no I don't believe you could bake an egg in a clay pot outside in 100 farenheit...it will maybe become hard due to the water evaporating out of the egg, but bake it...nope...it may be possible on metal, not on clay...

As for in the bonsai pot...I have a meter that tests temp and if the soil is drenched, wet, damp or dry. And I can assure you that the temp inside a pot is never higher than the temp outside, in fact it is always substantially lower. It does get higher than usuall as the soil get dryer inside the pot...but again, nowhere near harmfull
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 27, 2012, 09:49 AM
Once again Herman you seem to know more than everyone else including Ryan Neil. It is a great honor that you are on BSG to share your vast knowledge. Next time it is over 100F airtemp crack an egg on the ground. Prefererably on something that absorbs heat like a pot or asphalt and see what happens.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2012, 11:19 AM
 :)Asphalt is black...so it will have temp high enough to bake an egg...use common sense nathan...don't get mad and sarcastic...and stop comparing rediculous stuff to a bonsai pot with soil in it...ps I'll crack an egg tomorrow and take a few pics for you...do you want it on clay, metal or asphalt?  ??? Its okay since our medium temp for nov and december are always over 100 farenheit....not that baking an egg on these materials in direct sunlight proves anything anyway...its nowhere near the exact circumstances we find in a bonsai pot...tell you what, take a flu thermometer and stick it in any pot you choose, with a tree in it, document what you've found and post it here :)
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 27, 2012, 11:57 AM
on a darker clay pot and try another on a black plastic nursery can.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2012, 05:10 PM
 ROTFL!!! Okay how about I just measure the temp inside a dark bonsai pot for you, you can choose the pot...ps I'm rather going to let my wife make me a hearty breakfast with those two eggs, since the debate is not about baking eggs on the ground, but about the soil temp inside a bonsai pot on a very hot day. Also I will move this debate to a new thread, I think we are way past hijacking this thread...we took it through a chop shop already...
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: John Kirby on November 28, 2012, 08:00 AM
One way to get around this issue of pots overheating is to place reflective wraps on the pots, eg., place a wet white towel over the surface of the soil and the exposed sides of the pot. Just a thought, this will allow you to save your eggs for the frying pan- or the omelet.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 28, 2012, 12:07 PM
One way to get around this issue of pots overheating is to place reflective wraps on the pots, eg., place a wet white towel over the surface of the soil and the exposed sides of the pot. Just a thought, this will allow you to save your eggs for the frying pan- or the omelet.

Herman convinced me that pots do not get hot but thanks anyways ;)
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2012, 01:20 PM
One way to get around this issue of pots overheating is to place reflective wraps on the pots, eg., place a wet white towel over the surface of the soil and the exposed sides of the pot. Just a thought, this will allow you to save your eggs for the frying pan- or the omelet.

Yes that will help a lot, especially around mid day when the temp is at its highest. The water evaporating from the towel will cool down the pot, if its needed
One way to get around this issue of pots overheating is to place reflective wraps on the pots, eg., place a wet white towel over the surface of the soil and the exposed sides of the pot. Just a thought, this will allow you to save your eggs for the frying pan- or the omelet.

Herman convinced me that pots do not get hot but thanks anyways ;)

As I've said...I think its more to do with rapid water loss leading to loss of fine feeder roots...

Something interesting:

My friend almost lost his precumbens nana juniper, because the mix he used was too free draining and kept too little water...it killed off fine feeder roots...this just goes to show how important the right soil mix is for your area and the specific tree.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: John Kirby on November 28, 2012, 01:27 PM
So, did he quantify the loss in fine feeder roots, or just speculate?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2012, 03:20 PM
LOL LOL! No sir he tried to slip pot the pre cumbens with minimal disturbance into a finer mix, and we saw some feeder roots, cut one of them off, and established they are dried...nothing to speculate about or quantify if the evidence is right infront of your eyes...
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2012, 03:26 PM
 Btw I forgot to mention...Nathan, I'd be careful of waving big names around like Ryan's and playing he said...especially if you didn't really understand what he was trying to teach...I emailed him and asked him about cooking roots...he's not really happy about it...his exact words were : no particle size has nothing to do with cooking roots...and offered to join this forum to set the record straight...I told him its not needed to do something as drastic... ::)
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 28, 2012, 03:52 PM
Phew, glad that got cleared up.

So, Tim, how are your trees doing?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 28, 2012, 04:34 PM
I have a 2 day workshop with Ryan on tuesday and wednesday so I will definitely get to the bottom of the discussion and re-post here. And for the record it was a very specific conversation following his lecture on soil and soil particle size. His words may have been slightly different but that was definitely the overall concern and opinion that he had. Additionally I'm not sure how the soil could be dry when the akadama is still visibly wet. My problem was not the soil drying out, if anything I never let it dry out but that was the case with all my pines. So what was the difference? If the only difference was my particle size and if it didn't dry out then what would your conclusion be?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 28, 2012, 04:56 PM
Herman I think you will learn that there is not always one right answer to things. Just because that happened to your friends juniper does not mean that is what happened to me.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: TimC on November 28, 2012, 10:46 PM
Wow!  I think all the ideas offered all have their value, and I appreciate the feedback!  Trees are fine, they have new pots waiting for the right time, not now.  Going to Dallas Bonsai meeting Saturday.........club will help as well.  Thx all.....
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Elliott on November 29, 2012, 03:28 AM
Herman, I'm also in that study group with Ryan that Nathan mentioned and he gets pretty specific with particle size. I took carefull notes during the lecture part. I will bet all my trees that the only thing he was "unhappy about" was the bothersome email he had to answer. His schedule is so hectic, I would be really surprised if he jumped on here at this point or he would have done it by now like Boon, Owen and Peter Tea do.
 Please be a little bit more humble and you never know, you might learn something.  I have to go, my baobab tree is overheating. ;)
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 29, 2012, 11:43 AM
what forum is this? forums are a bad place to learn my friend....for reasons like this, bummer. No particle size has nothing to do with cooking the roots.
Ryan

P.S. give me the forum link and I'll go give you all the info you need right there on the forum post.

This was the exact email I received in reply from Ryan...

Maybe I should get him to post the info here...since you guys are still putting words in his mouth...

Lol at overheating baobab...that's not possible my friend...
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 29, 2012, 11:56 AM
Wow!  I think all the ideas offered all have their value, and I appreciate the feedback!  Trees are fine, they have new pots waiting for the right time, not now.  Going to Dallas Bonsai meeting Saturday.........club will help as well.  Thx all.....


Excellent. Lots of knowledgable people in the Dallas club. Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 29, 2012, 12:38 PM
After reading your post yesterday I called Ryan and of course he laughed at the whole thing. He assured me that i was basically correct and that he would go over it with me on tuesday to set the record straight. So rest assured I will post a follow up here next week.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: bwaynef on November 29, 2012, 02:37 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would discourage Ryan Neil from joining/participating on a bonsai forum.  Not that I don't trust those in his study group to come through with the details but...
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 29, 2012, 03:04 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would discourage Ryan Neil from joining/participating on a bonsai forum.  Not that I don't trust those in his study group to come through with the details but...

Don't beat around the bush man...come out and say what you want to say....
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 29, 2012, 06:09 PM
What the hell are you talking about? I will discuss with Ryan in person next week. He is very busy and it was pointless to waste more of his time on the phone about a retarded argument that I'm having with a complete newbie. In a nutshell those are the two reasons why he's not on here. 1)No time 2)doesn't want to waste the little time he has with stubborn people who hide behind their keyboard and argue more than they listen. He's use to respect, could you imagine how frustrating that would before him to be on these forums.(My words not his)
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Bonsai Study Group Admin on November 29, 2012, 06:26 PM
Language, please.  Let's try to keep it civil.  Perhaps a new thread to discuss cooking eggs?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 29, 2012, 06:39 PM
is it possible to edit all of these posts into another thread?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Bonsai Study Group Admin on November 29, 2012, 06:45 PM
Probably, but I don't think we'll go through the trouble here.

Perhaps in the future we can all be civil to one another and decide not to pollute other people's threads with pointless bickering, yes?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: bwaynef on November 29, 2012, 07:56 PM
...offered to join this forum to set the record straight...I told him its not needed to do something as drastic... ::)
I'm not sure why anyone would discourage Ryan Neil from joining/participating on a bonsai forum.  Not that I don't trust those in his study group to come through with the details but...

Don't beat around the bush man...come out and say what you want to say....

Ryan was offering to share the information.  You told him it wouldn't be necessary.  I'm not sure why anyone would discourage Ryan Neil from participating here.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 29, 2012, 07:59 PM
Probably, but I don't think we'll go through the trouble here.

Perhaps in the future we can all be civil to one another and decide not to pollute other people's threads with pointless bickering, yes?


why is it pointless? There was a point that has completely differing opinions. Is that not worthy of discussion? If the point I'm trying to make is valid or not others need to know. I lost over $3000 worth of trees this summer and so far Ryan Neil was the only opinion that has made any sense and now others are saying "BS".
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: John Kirby on November 29, 2012, 10:05 PM
Is always tough to lose good trees, hopefully you have good information to help resolve the problem in the future. I have often used very coarse planting medium in big pots, then used a much smaller mix at the top. But, I don't live in or near the desert.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 29, 2012, 10:23 PM
That would definitely help if drying out was my problem but that was not the case. Not sure why I'm one of very few to have issues with coarse soil on JBP. No problems with my tridents but they are on the ground with some grass and other things insulating them from getting as hot. So it's hard to tell if it's the species or the temperature with those.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Herman on November 30, 2012, 03:42 AM
Listen Nathan, one thing...I never got so defensive that I started going to the personal level of calling your argument retarded or you a complete noob...don't try and sell respect if you have none! Its good that your trying to find a better soil mix..but don't take your frustrations out on me. The fact that you lost so much trees kind of explains your level of experience in itself...its good that you have someone like Ryan, cause on your own you seem lost...
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: nathanbs on November 30, 2012, 12:27 PM
Herman all that I have to say is boy I sure am enjoying all of this rain alternating with sunny days. Cheers.
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Chrisl on November 30, 2012, 01:28 PM
Good god guys, I thought the bickering was going to end??  Maybe just close this thread?
Title: Re: Newly Acquired Japanese Black Pines
Post by: Bonsai Study Group Admin on November 30, 2012, 01:33 PM
Locking it down.