Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Larry Gockley on April 15, 2011, 12:28 PM

Title: New candles- now what?
Post by: Larry Gockley on April 15, 2011, 12:28 PM
I have but two JBP bonsai, one I've managed to keep alive for seven years and counting, and I have a question about cutting candles. I've read to cut candles in June or even July in warmer climates, " the longer you wait ,the less time the new ones will have to grow", but the first week of April, my one tree has all 2 to 2 1/2 inch candles, and by the second week, they are opening up to needles. I'm thinking long before June, the candles will be full fledged needles, so I'm not sure to cut now or wait. I'm in zone 8-B, east  Texas. Thanks for any and all advice. Larry
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on April 15, 2011, 01:19 PM
I have but two JBP bonsai, one I've managed to keep alive for seven years and counting, and I have a question about cutting candles. I've read to cut candles in June or even July in warmer climates, " the longer you wait ,the less time the new ones will have to grow", but the first week of April, my one tree has all 2 to 2 1/2 inch candles, and by the second week, they are opening up to needles. I'm thinking long before June, the candles will be full fledged needles, so I'm not sure to cut now or wait. I'm in zone 8-B, east  Texas. Thanks for any and all advice. Larry

For me, in my climate, I typically pinch (break in roughly half) around tax day (now) and decandle in mid to late June.  The pinching will help some with energy balance while the weaker area candles extend.  I sometimes will follow up with a second or even third pinching, if the growth warrants it.
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: John Kirby on April 15, 2011, 01:44 PM
make sure to leave some needles below where you break the candle off.
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: garywood on April 15, 2011, 04:09 PM
The picture is not showing up for me
Wood
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: bwaynef on April 15, 2011, 04:18 PM
The picture is not showing up for me
Wood

No one has posted a picture in this thread.  On the other hand, if I've ruined your subtlety then I apologize.
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: Larry Gockley on April 15, 2011, 06:06 PM
Got it guys, thanks a lot. Larry
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: garywood on April 17, 2011, 12:16 PM
John & John, purely as a matter of discourse. Larry said he's had one BP for seven years and now is asking about candle work. For those that may come across this thread in the future, what leads you to believe that traditional candle work is what's needed?
Wood
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: John Kirby on April 17, 2011, 01:49 PM
Gary,
I tend to reduce numbers and/or length on candles throughout development on containerized trees, after trees start to really push, primarily to increase the density of adventitious buds for later (reduce those long straight, bud free areas). If you are going for really massive trees in the ground, then this is less of an issue, you just have to graft branches where you want them (as you do, I believe).


Lots of us have those trees that were reared with unrestricted sacrifice branch growth that get fat trunks, but then 10-15 years after they are removed and the trees are styled they still have the big scars, which may take another 20 years or more to get completely hidden with old bark.
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: BONSAI_OUTLAW on April 24, 2011, 12:51 AM
John, do you do any scraping or use any technique to speed this healing other than feeding the tree real well?
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: subnet_rx on April 25, 2011, 04:54 PM
One of my jbp's is behaving much like the OP's.  The candles already have needles extending, and by July/August, I have another round of growth coming on.  With the other one, the candles are extending, but no needles yet.  So, just to be clear, is the June date set or is there some point of progression in the candle that I should be looking for before cutting/removing for ramification? 
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: nathanbs on April 26, 2011, 12:53 AM
there is truly no set date. And as soon as you think you've got the date nailed, 2 years from now the seasons have shortened or lengthened and everything is out of whack. Here in Southern California with the instruction of Tak Shimazu we removed all candles in their entirety in July 2010. We then observed that all of our trees resulted in very small needles, which is not good for all tree types and styles of JBP.  I have several very tall lanky JBP's, and several bunjin JBP's that look better with a little longer needles. Tak suggests that we move back to mid June this year to give a little longer period for growth on the second bud/candle sets. 
So my suggestion is to try June 1 and observe and adjust the following years accordingly.
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: John Kirby on April 26, 2011, 07:35 AM
Part of the timing thing is tied to where you live, part is what stage of development your tree is in, what your goals for candle/needle management are, and the health and fertilizer status of your tree. When you get your pines on an annual rhythm of candle and needle management you won't see these runaway candles.

We are talking about two separate issues here, one is candle management to balance spring growth and strength, the second step is candle removal which stimulates shorter internodes and ramification (and shorter needles). So, to restrict and balance growth is spring, break candles in half (or so) making sure that there are needles below the break. If you want to stimulate further branching, then remove the spring candles in June or July (depending on where you live). However, you must fertilize the tree heavily prior to spring candle removal in the early summer. Failure to fertilize (and water) the trees adequately can lead to poor rebudding, overly short needles or in really bad cases death.

If you have overly short needles in Southern California following an early July spring candle removal it suggests to me that you need to look at your fertilization and watering regimen, and possibly to be sure that the trees have been adequately repotted and have actively growing and healthy roots.

Boon has a great set of DVDs on Black Pines and their management, spring/summer work, fall work and repotting. Really, really, clears things up.

Good luck,
John

Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: nathanbs on April 26, 2011, 10:10 AM
Part of the timing thing is tied to where you live, part is what stage of development your tree is in, what your goals for candle/needle management are, and the health and fertilizer status of your tree. When you get your pines on an annual rhythm of candle and needle management you won't see these runaway candles.

We are talking about two separate issues here, one is candle management to balance spring growth and strength, the second step is candle removal which stimulates shorter internodes and ramification (and shorter needles). So, to restrict and balance growth is spring, break candles in half (or so) making sure that there are needles below the break. If you want to stimulate further branching, then remove the spring candles in June or July (depending on where you live). However, you must fertilize the tree heavily prior to spring candle removal in the early summer. Failure to fertilize (and water) the trees adequately can lead to poor rebudding, overly short needles or in really bad cases death.

If you have overly short needles in Southern California following an early July spring candle removal it suggests to me that you need to look at your fertilization and watering regimen, and possibly to be sure that the trees have been adequately repotted and have actively growing and healthy roots.

Boon has a great set of DVDs on Black Pines and their management, spring/summer work, fall work and repotting. Really, really, clears things up.

Good luck,
John



Every student experienced the same result. Clearly indicating that July was too late for most of our trees, it was ideal for several that wanted short compact needles on shohin etc.  In years past July was ideal.  Like Boon, Tak is a very experienced bonsai master.  I have Boons DVD's, and yes they are great.  One question? What is the purpose of breaking candles in half now or over the next month or so? Why not just wait until June/July and do a complete candle removal?
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: mcpesq817 on April 26, 2011, 11:12 AM
Boon has a great set of DVDs on Black Pines and their management, spring/summer work, fall work and repotting. Really, really, clears things up.

Boon's JBP videos are really great - I would highly recommend them.  I'm looking forward to his upcoming deciduous DVDs.
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: John Kirby on April 26, 2011, 09:30 PM
The purpose for spring candle management now is to slow down the really, really, strong areas. THis allows you to reallocate strength and to balance the growth more quickly. Interestingly it also seems to facilitate back budding as the strong buds are really kicking out the growth hormones and removing the candle tips really causes these hormones to decline, releasing the buds from the growth hormone induced inhibition.

Check the roots.

John
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: nathanbs on April 26, 2011, 11:21 PM
Im not sure I understand you correctly. By removing a portion of the really long candles now it will prohibit back budding or promote back budding?
Title: Re: New candles- now what?
Post by: John Kirby on April 27, 2011, 08:53 AM
promote