Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Thomas J. on December 22, 2015, 12:10 PM

Title: Need a Little Help
Post by: Thomas J. on December 22, 2015, 12:10 PM
One of my JBPs is showing a problem that I'm not sure of what it is. I never have any problems with my JBPs and this is the first for me so I guess I need to know what I'm dealing with so I can begin treatment. Can someone please tell me what I have going on here and what is the best remedy. Thanks.
Thomas J
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: DorianJF on December 24, 2015, 10:27 AM
Hi Thomas

I am no expert on JBP.  All I can think of is that it may be dying and I have no advice on how to save it.  The reason I say that is because one of mine looked exactly the same and it just continued to go backwards and eventually died.  I really hope it is not the reason.

I hope one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum help you out with a suggestion or two and totally prove me wrong.

Good luck though.
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: John Kirby on December 27, 2015, 07:59 PM
Where is the pine(generally)?
When was it ladt repotted? What medium is it growing in?
What is your fungicide/insecticide schedual?

Not uncommon, not necessarily fatal.
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: bwaynef on December 28, 2015, 12:08 AM
If this pine's where most of ThomasJ's other trees are, I believe he's in the Dallas area.
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: Thomas J. on December 28, 2015, 08:14 PM
Yes that's correct, I'm in the Dallas area. As I mentioned I've never had any problem like this with any of my JBPs since I started working with them back in 2007. I have 15 -2 1/2yr old seedlings and 6 older specimen JBPs and none of them show any signs of this. I repot my JBPs every year around this time of the year. I really don't have a fungicide program since they usually don't show any signs of fungal infection. I started using Daconil on this one as soon as I saw what was going on and seems to me to be holding it at bay. I now keep it out of the rain and make sure the needles don't get wet when watering. Forgot to mention that all my pines are in Boons mix. :-)
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: 0soyoung on December 29, 2015, 06:03 PM
I think this implies a root problem. A guy in Alabama had a similar problem. He submerged his pot in a malathion solution until it was saturated and then resumed normal care of the tree. His tree recovered, just as one would expect if it was a root-bug problem, like the root aphids that got some publicity this past spring. Maybe it is your tree's problem as well - just a thought. :)
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: John Kirby on December 30, 2015, 09:27 AM
You probably need a fungicide that will work at the level of the roots. A drench like , and a systenic that can clear the "tubes" . Additionally, a look at the roots may just reveal a problem like root aphids. Using a granular sydtemic insecticide should clear them as well.

Repot it and lets see the roots.

Good soil mix.
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: Leo in NE Illinois on December 30, 2015, 04:24 PM
I'm no better than the previous at identifying the cause of your situation, but like the others, you need to act fast.

Root mealies, you could use a drench of a contact insecticide, like Malathion, Mavrik or Decathalon (both are synthetic pyrethrin types), Diazinon liquid, or any of the many others. Be sure mealy bug, and or soft body scale are listed as targets on the label. Submerge pot in a bucket of this solution. Repeat at the interval suggested on the label. Usually 7 to 10 days, but read label. The repeat is important to eliminate larva that hatch from eggs that did not get killed.

Outside chance of borers, in which case Merit - imidiproclid is active ingredient, or other systemic that lists borers, and it probably will work for root mealies, definitely will work if mealies are on the label. Read label carefully and do repeat at interval suggested. You can alternate, Malathion soil drench one week, followed by a Merit soil drench or dose at the repeat time for the Malathion. Don't repeat the Merit until the recommended Merit interval has passed. READ LABELS. There is important info on use in the fine print.

I doubt what your are looking at is spider mite, if so it is an extreme case. No webs in photos. But if you ever have to treat for spider mites, this is my suggestion.

Spider mites, flat mites, false spider mites. These all are insidious bastards, and often their damage is difficult to identify, there damage is often mistaken for some other cause. And they themselves are too small for my tired eyes to see. Use a miticide, often the miticide can be mixed with the insecticide. (called a tank mix in the nursery trade, you mix several types of chemicals into the same tank for spraying) The Pyrethrum type insecticides will be moderately effective against mites, but not 100% effective, a miticide will work. I personally have used a tank mix of Decathalon, Pentac, and Enstar II, for mites and mealies with good effect.

Enstar II - it is a juvenile growth hormone inhibitor, by itself does not help much in controlling insects, but when tank mixed or sprayed after a pestacide with good knock down, or kill effectiveness, really helps to clean up difficult infestations. The tank mix above the Decatholon is the knock down, Enstar II is the juvenile growth hormone inhibitor. Any larva that survive the 2 treatments, 7 to 10 days apart, will never be able to mature and breed.

Merit - and other Imidiproclid type neonicitinoids are not effective against spider mite at all. So if this is your go to for a systemic, you will still have to treat for mites separately. Avid is a miticide that is on the market that might be a good substitute for Pentac.

Now for the fungicides.

I use a systemic, granular Cleary's 3336. About a tablespoon per gallon of media, sprinkled on top. For pots of various shapes you will have to approximate the volume. This seems better than most other fungicides I've tried, Daconil is a close second best. There are many others, these are the two I've used.

The 2 fungicides I've used lately are both granular products, to be applied to the soil for systemic use. Merit and Cleary's 336 can be applied the same day without harm.

None of these chemicals are cheap, the Enstar II is in particular quite expensive, $100 for 4 fluid ounces. But when you have thousands of dollars worth of trees, its money well spent.
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: Thomas J. on December 31, 2015, 08:50 AM
Well I just did a repot before I posted this thread and don't recall seeing anything out of the ordinary, but then I wasn't aware of there possibly being a root problem for this so naturally I wasn't looking in depth for anything. I will probably go back and pull the tree out and see if there is anything that I can see for sure, but I'll also continue to use the Daconil for now also.
Title: Re: Need a Little Help
Post by: J.Kent on December 31, 2015, 11:48 AM
Bill Valavanis' "International Bonsai" has had several series of articles about care and management of black pine.  Call or e-mail him for issue numbers. Back issues are cheap.  The current issue (2015 #3) has Part I of a series by Julian Adams. 

I'll get Part II, but then I'm letting my subscription lapse.  It's unlikely I'll see them all.