Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Adair M on December 05, 2012, 04:30 PM

Title: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 05, 2012, 04:30 PM
I haven't done a thing to it, except admire it, and try to determine whether I should try to make it into an informal upright by developing an axex over the center of the trunk, or let it be a slant by developing the apex over to the right.

Loads of potential with this one!

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: bonsaitodd on December 05, 2012, 04:53 PM
Nice material.  Where did you acquire it?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: bigDave on December 05, 2012, 05:30 PM
And a good victim it is !

got it all- bark, girth, movement, branching

congrats

big D

Like to see some other views, for possible fronts and designs...if you are willing   ;)
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Chrisl on December 05, 2012, 07:57 PM
All right Adair!  Now that's one hell of a tree!  Looking forward to seeing your 'next move' ;-)

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on December 06, 2012, 01:36 AM
Holy crap...where do you guys find raw material like that, its so unfair!

I don't get the formal upright though, its got a bit of a bend in the trunk.
It already looks moyogi to me? Its not really slanting so much as it has movement in the trunk...
But then again...what do I know, right...
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: nathanbs on December 06, 2012, 02:02 AM
You would be correct if he said formal upright but he said informal. I would go with an informal upright as you optioned at least until I see more views. Is this a teleperion farms tree?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: nathanbs on December 06, 2012, 02:07 AM
Can somebody please tell me if it's even possible to get flare like that with out significant lateral root work? I'm assuming though field grown they must have limited vertical roots it pruned them several times during this trees development
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on December 06, 2012, 09:22 AM
Gets planted over a flat object like a tile in the ground...would defeat the purpose to do rootwork every few years if it is being field grown...would slow it down
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on December 07, 2012, 12:05 PM
Gets planted over a flat object like a tile in the ground...would defeat the purpose to do rootwork every few years if it is being field grown...would slow it down

Are you speaking from personal experience?  If you wouldn't mind posting pictures, I would love to see some of your JBP developed in this way.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on December 07, 2012, 05:56 PM
Was planted in a growing bed, came out two years ago, nearly trippled its trunk diameter...anyhow...

 :-\ will not be coming here anymore...had enough now... 
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Jay tupelo on December 07, 2012, 07:31 PM
thanks the pic herman nice
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Jay tupelo on December 07, 2012, 07:32 PM
sorry thank you for the picture. what a fat trunk
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on December 07, 2012, 07:43 PM
Um, ok.

Adair, this looks like a Lone Pine Nursery tree.  Might you know where this one was grown?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: nathanbs on December 07, 2012, 10:07 PM
Um, ok.

Adair, this looks like a Lone Pine Nursery tree.  Might you know where this one was grown?

Yes please divulge where you got this
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 07, 2012, 11:52 PM
Matsu,

I got this beauty from Chris at Telperion Farms.

I ordered it before I went to Boons Intensive because I knew after I went there I would be unhappy with my material.

I'm glad I did.

I'll get more pics up. The side shown is going to be the front.  The problem is the trunk is thick!  (I know what you're thinking. Of course the trunk is thick!). What I mean is the trunk is even thicker on the backside of the tree. Which means i will need a wide pot.   Front to back, the nebari is 13 inches. All the pots at my local shop that had that depth were huge!  And deep. (Height).  Which took away from the trunk, in my eye.

I've searched some Japanese sites, and they have wide pots that would not be as tall, which is what I think I need. Of course, they're expensive, and shipping virtually doubles the price!

I'm going to be leading a workshop next week at  the bonsai shop on pines, and I'm going to use this tree as part of that. It was decandled last summer, and many of the new buds have 4, 5, or even 6 new summer candles, which should be reduced to two. (As we all know). I will demonstrate that, and a little basic wiring.

I'm taking the potting Intensive at the end of January. I'll pot this one soon after that. So, I need to order a pot from Japan because it might take a couple of months for shipping.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 08, 2012, 07:36 AM
Adair, let Boon or I know what size pot you need, always on the look out for pots., sometimes an odd one shows up. Or, you canget your measurements and try One of the US potters.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: bwaynef on December 08, 2012, 08:23 AM
I'm going to be leading a workshop next week at  the bonsai shop on pines ...

At the Monastery?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 08, 2012, 08:46 AM
John,

Thanks.  I was going to PM you.

Wayne,

Not at the Monastery. I haven't been there since Brother Paul passed away.  I should though...  No, I'm going to be doing it at Plant City Bonsai in Clermont, GA from 9 to 2 on Sunday, Dec 16.  It's their annual Open House from 2 to 4. 

Steve Cratty is a great guy and travels all over the country bringing in material.  But it seems everyone around here is terrified of pines.  JBP especially.  They're considered "too hard", or "advanced" for the average hobbiest around here.  They buy junipers instead.  I tell people, they're wrong, we have the perfect climate for pines!  Look around, what native trees do you see?  Pines!  Are there any native Junipers here?  No!

My primary interest is JBP, so I offered to Steve to do a workshop on Pines after going to Boon's Intensive, and if there's interest, I'll do one each time I go.  I'm going to try to do it like Boon does, with some video, some demo and some hands on.  I have Boon's Pine DVD series, so we'll view a bit of the Fall Clean Up, and Wiring DVDs.

I hope people show up!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: GastroGnome on December 08, 2012, 11:23 AM
That is really excellent material, and goes a long way towards showing the difference between professionally farmed bonsai and field grown stock.  Primary branch selection has already been made and maintained, branches below the primary or on the same plane to thicken the base weren't allowed to get to large, and there has clearly been some nebari work.  Excellent.  If we had more farmers like Chris producing material like this I think we'd see American bonsai develop much faster!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: bwaynef on December 08, 2012, 02:36 PM
Wayne,

I'm going to be doing it at Plant City Bonsai in Clermont, GA from 9 to 2 on Sunday, Dec 16.  It's their annual Open House from 2 to 4. 

What is the cost to attend?  Is this a demo or will there be workshop trees available?  PM me details (or feel free to post 'em here).
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 08, 2012, 03:38 PM
Wayne,

$35 to attend.  I'm not charging anything.  It's a "bring your own", or you can buy something from Steve's.  I've told him to see if he can get some copper wire from Jim Gremmel to sell.  Previously, he only sold aluminum, and I've been encouraging him to provide copper.  We'll see.  Call Steve at 770-983-3377, or visit www.plantcitybonsai.com (http://www.plantcitybonsai.com).

I'm bringing 4 of my trees to show: 1) An example of a decent wiring job, 2) What happens (wrong) if you decandle at the wrong time of the year, 3)  A tree that's been in training two years, and the back budding I've stimulated, 4) and this tree to demonstrate bud selelection.  I don't have any "finished" trees, unfortunately.

At the last workshop at Steve's, it was "supposed" to be a Pines workshop, and a "wiring" workshop.  It was pines, most everyone bought a JWP Steve brought in from Brussell's.  Hardly anyone put any wire on.  Except me.  I wired a JBP into a SemiCascade.

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 08, 2012, 03:44 PM
More pictures taken today in the rain:

The inside of the Anderson pot it's in is 14 inches.  The nebari barely fits in there front to back.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 09, 2012, 12:29 AM
Adair,
You will need to measure the wide points when you get it out and do the root work, an Oval in the 10x18 would probably work, biut you will need to measure, I would go large to get the healing and maximum bud development. Lot's of possibilities for this one. John
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: nathanbs on December 09, 2012, 03:36 AM
Adair,
You will need to measure the wide points when you get it out and do the root work, an Oval in the 10x18 would probably work, biut you will need to measure, I would go large to get the healing and maximum bud development. Lot's of possibilities for this one. John

Do you think an oval would be masculine enough for this beefy tree?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 09, 2012, 09:44 AM
Could be, depends onjow much curve he ends up with. The easiest way to reduce the visual mass of the pot is to move from  square/ rectangle to a cut corner octagon  or an oval. With this tree, when the large roots are replaced with fine roots, it will most likely fit in to a small enough  strong rectangle to be pleasing. For training, it is less problemmatic to put it in a larger pot, but one with less soil volume/mass to deal with.  But you could also plant it in to a 12x18x4-5 to go. I woould hope theshow pot would be somewhat smaller.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 09, 2012, 10:05 AM
While I haven't taken the tree out of the Anderson pot, I have poked around... The wood above the soil level is 10 inches front to back.  The roots are solid for about an inch under the soil level.  I'm thinking the wide side of any pot is going to have to be at least 13 inches.

And I agree it would be better to err on the large side! I can always put it in a better pot later.

The Anderson flat is 5 inches tall.  The soil level is at about 4 inches.  So, the tree has a fairly shallow root system.  Most of the pots I've seen that could accomodate the width are deep, 5 to 5.5 inches on the inside.  Clay pots are much thicker than the Anderson flat it's in, and they just appear to be so much more massive.  I took the tree to the bonsai shop, and placed various pots in front of it, stood back and it just seemed that all I saw was "a wall of baked clay".

There was an oval I could use that would be a good training pot while I look for a good show pot.  (There's plenty of time.  It will take 4 or 5 years to refine this tree.)
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 09, 2012, 10:17 AM
Do the repotting intensive first, then think about the pot you will need. I believe you might be s'prised as to whatcan work.

John
(You won't be in Kansas any more.....)
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 09, 2012, 10:46 AM
LOL!!!

That's exactly what I was planning to do!  But I thought it would be prudent to start shopping for a pot, knowing that it might take some time for me to find one.

Chris at Telperion Farms didn't have a photo of the nebari when he last potted it, but I've seen some of other similar trees that he's done.  And he does a pretty good job of developing fine roots.

I'm thinking it will be able to go into a pretty shallow pot, relatively speaking.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 10, 2012, 07:00 PM
Boon has a good training/sit and stare at on the bench pot for you. You can become like the rest of us who've done intensives- the person running through the airport with a pot in hand. We have trained the TSA folks to expect them with only funny looks and a swipe for the scanner.....
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 10, 2012, 08:34 PM
Too funny!

Yeah, I was thinking ill check a too large bag, I'm flying Delta and I get a free checked bag.

We stopped at Grove Way, and he had some nice pots, too. But they all seemed to be oiled with something. They were sticky.

If Boon has something, that would be nice.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 10, 2012, 10:12 PM
Johnnie's pors had beentreated with linseed oil. Dishwasher.......
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 14, 2012, 09:32 AM
Boon is going to be judging this year's Atlanta Bonsai Society show in May in 2013.  I'm sure he will have a workshop, so I'll bring this tree the workshop.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to look for a pot, and do the regular fall maintenance on it.

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 14, 2012, 12:30 PM
Adair, he has a good pot for you, I will take a picture and measure for you. It is a very nice quality Chinese pot, males a great value. If you decide you don't want it I can use it.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Chrisl on December 14, 2012, 01:13 PM
Darn nice of you John to help out Adair.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 14, 2012, 02:35 PM
Shared teacher, I am obliged.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 14, 2012, 02:38 PM
Thanks, John!  I'm looking forward to it!

I owe you a beer!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Jason E on March 23, 2014, 10:17 PM
How's this one coming along Adair?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 24, 2014, 08:00 AM
Jason,

It's doing great. I need to update the thread with more recent pictures.

Meanwhile, I'll tell you what had happened:

Boon indeed had a nice pot, and I did manage to get it in my bag, and it arrived in perfect condition. When I repotted it, I found that it was in mostly pumice, and had a lot of fine roots. Probably the best nebari I've ever seen from "stock" material. I used Boon Mix.

Boon came for the Atlanta Bonsai show, and changed the front. Rotated it 1/4 turn to the right. Doing this moved the large pruning scar to the back, and turns the deep nebari that was in the back more to the side where it works better. It also makes the first branch the "back" branch. That's why I hadn't considered doing this before.

Boon then proceeds to approach graft a new first branch. He took advantage of the callous area of the big pruning scar. Those graft easily.

Changing the front, and grafting on a new branch radically changed my perception. And it opened up a new perspective of bonsai design for me. Before, I had been constrained by where the branches were already located on the tree. Now that I've learned to graft, new possibilities are available...

Took the tree home and studied it from this new perspective, and decided another branch could be grafted on, just below the big sacrifice branch. Peter Tea was coming for a workshop next month, so he and I did that one.

Oh, the sacrifice branch... Boon made a V cut about half way thru it. We then filled it with cut paste. The idea is leaving it half cut will allow the trunk section below the cut to reroute to the needles, and not die back. Next year, cut back some more, and remove in third year.

So Peter and I did another approach graft. Unfortunately, this one did not take. I think it got damaged by strong winds from a storm. So, I redid it with another branch, and it appears to have taken.

I wired the tree last fall.

Boon was doing privates with a friend in North Carolina last week, so I took the tree up for him to review. He did minor adjustments to my styling, and shaved off some bark above the approach graft to weaken the section before the graft to make the new branch use the graft union for its nourishment. I have strong candles coming from that new branch!

I will repot the tree to get it oriented properly in the pot next year.

Stay tuned, I'll go out and take pictures.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 24, 2014, 08:30 AM
As promised, pictures!  No guarantee they will be oriented properly, they're from my iPhone.

The first is the old front.

The second is the new front. There is a back branch on the inside of the curve, which will have to be removed at some point. For now, it is supplying a branch I'm approach grafting.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on March 24, 2014, 11:10 AM
Very nice
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on March 25, 2014, 03:27 AM
damn! gotta love that trunk!!!! :o. can you maybe post me one like that :D hahahaha

congrats

ps. do you have enough branches on it to choose from or will you have to graft some on? I still need some material that i can teach myself to graft on...

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 25, 2014, 10:14 AM
Herman, the question is not "are there enough branches", the question is "are there branches in the right place?"

I'm currently grafting two, and there are several branches that are just very small that I will be letting grow to become larger branches. The biggest branch on the tree is the "back" branch. I've wired it out, and as it back buds, I'll be shortening it.

There's a strong leader at the apex I need to let run for a couple more years. But right at the base of it there's a small branch that will eventually be the true apex.

It's still got a lot of growing ahead of it.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Gaffer on March 25, 2014, 11:48 AM
I know this might sound rude to the weak at hart but may I ask how much you would pay for something of the stature . No one ever talks about costs in this study group. I am not being cheeky, how will one ever learn that, when you spend the money you gain a huge advantage in both time and in the long term ,costs. Better to save a little money up and do the deed, than buy 10 trees, and grow them out for 10 or15 years and still have take the chance at finished material .
Qualicum Brian
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 25, 2014, 07:30 PM
Gaffer,

It was about $1,500 delivered. The pot, another $400.

It will worth about 10 times that in 5 years when the branches are in and rammified.

The nebari is 12 to 13 inches wide. The apex candle (not the sacrifice apex) is about 9.5 inches above the soil line.

Can you say, "sumo?"   Sure, I knew you could!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Jason E on March 25, 2014, 08:25 PM
Thanks Adair for the update, and the info about development procedures.
It's looking good.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 25, 2014, 09:18 PM
I'm itching to remove the large sacrifice. It would look a LOT better if it were gone. But then I have to remember the long term plan... 
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Gaffer on March 25, 2014, 10:31 PM
Hi Adair
It is hard to find material like that up here and you are very lucky to have that resource. I guess I will just keep growing my own.
Hope I live another 20 years. Thankyou for your honesty.
Qualicum Brian
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on March 26, 2014, 03:24 AM
I thought you would graft it :) I wonder if the grower used a tile under the roots when he field growed it?
can't wait for my kotobuki and senzyomaru :D

enjoy your tree mr Adair :)

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 26, 2014, 08:44 AM
???  I am grafting on this tree. There are two approach grafts "in progress".

This tree was field grown in Oregan. For bonsai. Kris at Telperion Farms grows them in pumice, let's them grow out, cuts them back while trying to preserve low branches. When I received it, it was in an Anderson flat, with primarily black pumice for soil. I don't think it was grown over a tile. The trunk shows multiple scars where old sacrifice branches have been removed.

I have seen some pictures of his trees in the ground. Some of the sacrifice trunks/branches can get to 10 to 12 feet tall!

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on March 26, 2014, 10:28 AM
???  I am grafting on this tree. There are two approach grafts "in progress".

I think we missed each other completely lol. I knew you would graft it, was what i wanted to say  ::)

sjoe, almost 4 meter long sacrifices,  :o that is overkill

regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 26, 2014, 11:12 AM
Herman, That's how this tree has the lower trunk that it has.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on March 26, 2014, 12:58 PM
Adair interesting, I have a couple of older trees that this technique was used on. The scars persist for decades. Looks like you have avoided having them up front. The others could be there a long time.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 26, 2014, 05:57 PM
This tree has a MAJOR scar, that by Boon's turning the tree, has it in the back.  There are also several other scars in various stages of healing over.  The big scar has a nice callous growing, and we used that callous to graft the new first branch.  Boon says those callous take grafts well.

One thing that helps heal scars is to let a new sacrifice leader grow.  Of course, when it's time to cut it off, it creates a new scar!  Catch-22.

Once the tree begins the "refinement" stage, and gets decandled everywhere every year, the scar healing will slow.  I may have to resort to covering the big scar with clay cut paste and pressing some bark into that to hide the scar.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on March 26, 2014, 07:03 PM
Bark and epoxy........
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on March 27, 2014, 12:50 AM
How would one go about working those wounds? same as decidous by cutting away a sliver on the inside of the callus each spring, then sealing with wound putty? almost like working wounds on deciduous trees?

regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Gaffer on March 27, 2014, 08:47 PM
Good thought Herman
Qualicum Brian
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on March 27, 2014, 09:09 PM
Theydin't calloys the samee way, but jepping rhe tree growing strongly works very well
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: reddog on March 27, 2014, 11:07 PM
Theydin't calloys the samee way, but jepping rhe tree growing strongly works very well

What?
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on March 28, 2014, 01:05 AM
John,

We've told you over, and over again...

No Texting on BSG while driving!  Sheesh!

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on March 28, 2014, 01:52 AM
Hey when you gotta text you gotta text  ;D
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Sorce on March 28, 2014, 08:50 AM
Even Roadside trees, John is trying to make Shari. With his bumper tool.

Really I hope you are not.  ;D
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: bwaynef on March 28, 2014, 09:56 AM
Theydin't calloys the samee way, but jepping rhe tree growing strongly works very well

They don't callous the same way, but getting the tree growing strongly works very well.

How'd I do John?  (And if I'm right, how'd you get "jepping" from "getting"?)
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on March 29, 2014, 08:52 PM
Small phone, no glasses, big fingers.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on April 10, 2014, 02:21 AM
ONe of my friends just returned from Japan, he told me a funny thing, the japanese don't repot pines as frequently as "most" of the western world does. He told me that they don't repot pines for 5 years, or much more even up to 20 years, to let the soil mature and keep the tree growing strong. How often do you guys repot your pines?

Mr John Kirby, Owen, Mr Adair ?

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: bwaynef on April 10, 2014, 09:13 AM
Herman, for us plebes, one of the differences will be that we're dealing with MUCH younger material.  While we may still be guilty of ...over-repotting our young material, most folks here with older material do manage to go significantly longer between repottings.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Judy on April 10, 2014, 09:14 AM
I know that Daniel Robinson doesn't repot his pines... like ever.  Course his are older trees.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on April 16, 2014, 08:59 AM
I wouldn 't let Dan's repotting practices become part of the conversation. He also doesn't style many of his old trees.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on April 16, 2014, 09:58 AM
Hi guys,

so, of course the age of the pine would play a factor in how frequently it is repotted? wouldn't it slow growth down if a young tree is repotted on a 2 year cycle? most of my black pines are under 15 years old, and every time I've repotted them it has slowed them down considerably for that growing season, only regaining the lost vigor in the second growing season after repotting. Wouldnt it speed up developement, if a pine in developement has 4-6 years of uninterupted growth before repotting it? certainly this would mean that the soil mix should not break down for a very long time....

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Jason E on April 17, 2014, 07:49 PM
herman, yes only reason to do a 2 yer cycle on pines is first two repots getting rid of field soil half at a time.

 after that reasons to repot:

 a loss of percolation > in which case refreshing the surface layer is step one
 you want to change style/ angle
 decomposition > oxygen to h20 balance is h20 heavy


cheers, Jason

 




 take care, Jason
 
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on April 18, 2014, 10:14 PM
I am in the middle of repotting pines, most haven 't been repotted for at least 6 years, one 9 years. Funny thing is, despite the warnings of the turface crowd, the Akadama is in good shape.... And thse trees spent years in rapid, repeated , freeze-thaw cycles in NW Arkansas and here in the Connecticut deep freeze. Boon and I repotted for a week, I have another 20 or so older pines to do, then about 100 from Colanders to bigger colanders.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Owen Reich on April 19, 2014, 06:11 PM
I'm of the opinion that lower quality Akadama (as in turns into powder when pressed) is a issue.  The "dragon blend" labeled as Super Hard that was cooked to 300 F seems to be clumps of powder  :-\.  A few bags I've used were fine but many seemed sketchy. 

I've seen about 20 different mixes used for bonsai in the Midwest, Southeast, and New England this repotting season and the healthiest trees were in a free-draining mix.  This I feel is due to last year's nearly consistent wet weather.  Take that as you like. 
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on April 22, 2014, 10:14 PM
Next year, I'll repot this tree to get the front oriented correctly in the pot. I'll also be raising it a little. I purposely potted it a little deep when I moved it out of the Anderson flat. It will make the trunk appear even broader at the bottom!

To help heal the scars, I've applied the clay type cut paste. I did some carving of the heartwood so the calous can grow over without creating a bulge. Growing a strong apex leader will also help heal old wounds. I'm going to let the apex run untouched. The side sacrifice, the old one, will be pinched back. I need to force the tree to shift its energy away from this old sacrifice branch to the other parts of the tree.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on April 23, 2014, 02:00 AM
Sorry for hijacking the thread :)

this will be an awesome tree Adair! thanks for all the tips and advice! Keep us posted on this tree's developement.

best regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on April 23, 2014, 08:10 AM
No problem, Herman.

I should go out an take a picture today to record the progress.  It's a strange looking bird right now.  Some candles on the sacrifice branches and branches I'm growing out for possible future approach grafts have long needles and long candles ( 4 inch needles, 6 inch and extending candles, long internodes).  Areas that I've decandled in the past, so there's much more ramification, have short needles and short candles (1.5 inch needles 1 inch candles, short internodes).

Boon says I can decandle the approach graft branches this year.  So, that will help.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: izk_zero on April 24, 2014, 08:40 PM
That is a massive trunk! I can't wait to see what it looks like in a couple of years. I have many years of growing to get there but I'm glad to know that 15 foot sacrifice branches can be grown while maintaining lower growth. Thanks for sharing your tree.  :)

-IZK
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on May 29, 2014, 08:01 PM
Here's a photo I took a week or so ago. As you can see, there's a mixed bag of sacrifice branches, approach grafts, runners, and limbs starting ramification.

The ugly "teenager" period!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on May 30, 2014, 01:09 AM
Looks nice and healthy  ;D

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on May 30, 2014, 01:31 AM
It's growing well.  I got some "Poo Ball" fertilizer, adding a couple new ones about twice a week until it's time to decandle, then they all come off.  It gets liquid fish emulsion about once a week, too.  We had an unusually cold and long winter this year, so the candles are about 3 to 4 weeks behind schedule this year.  I'll still decandle around July 4.  For regular sized JBP.  I'll wait two more weeks to do the shohin.

The approach grafts appear to have taken.  I've scraped the bark off on three sides of the stem on the back side of the graft to force the scion to draw from the new union.  I've also wrapped a piece of wire around to further constrict the sap flow.

I will decandle the grafts this year.  I did not decandle the grafts last year.

I'm going to Boon's Intensive next week.  I'll be a decandling fool!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on May 30, 2014, 03:57 AM
Hi Adair :)

I wonder if I could fertilize as often and strong as you do if i have composted bark in my mixture? its extremely free draining.

thanks for updating :)

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on May 30, 2014, 08:20 AM
I start off slowly, adding more fertilizer as the season progresses.

I think you could do the same. The bark just holds more water.  Mine is in Boon Mix, all inorganic.  The Poo Balls dissolve, and spreads out across the surface, and washes down into the soil.

In the Fall, after we do the bud selection and needle plucking, we remove the top 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch of soil, and replace it with new fresh Boon Mix.  For those trees we are not anticipating repotting in the Spring.  This gets rid of a lot of the old broken down fertilizer cakes.  Boon says it's one of the most important things to do to keep bonsai healthy for the long term.  And one step most neglect.

Herman, there's a lady from Narobi who's studied in Japan and making great bonsai.  If you haven't conversed with her, you should.  Her name is Neli.  I think she has posted on this site. 
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on May 30, 2014, 09:43 AM
Herman, there's a lady from Narobi who's studied in Japan and making great bonsai.  If you haven't conversed with her, you should.  Her name is Neli.  I think she has posted on this site. 

eish, so not happening, Neli and me do not get along, it gets ugly very quickly...I got to know her when she just started out doing bonsai October 2012. Trust me when I say that I want to spare this forum another feud between me and Neli, she already drove me, my fiance and a few of my friends away from SA bonsai forum, one being a moderator  :( . since then SA bonsai forum tanked because everyone that contributed a lot left or didn't post anymore, so when the software licence expired, the owner of the forum did not deam it worth while to renew the licence.

kind regards
Herman

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on May 30, 2014, 11:58 AM
Oh, sorry Herman, I had no idea.

Never mind!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Herman on June 03, 2014, 08:48 AM
No probz Adair :)

I learn a lot from you!

thanks for all the tips and pointers  :D

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on August 23, 2014, 01:37 PM
Here's a photo of the back of the tree. The lower branches are developing lots of summer candles. As ramification increases, I'll be cutting back to shorten the branches.

Up top, there are still some sacrifice branches. These have long needles.

Over on the left, there is a sacrifice I did decandle because I want to weaken it before I remove it entirely. As you can see, it really back budded!  Lots of energy going there. When its removed, the tree will redirect that energy to the rest if the tree.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Sorce on August 24, 2014, 05:18 AM
Is it that overly large branch top left set for removal?

Nice progress... Son of Thunder!

We all learn a lot from you, and it is greatly appreciated.

How bout a blog?

Sorce
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Anthony on August 24, 2014, 05:26 AM
Adair,

just stopping by to say - thank you very much !!!

Will testing out a few of your ideas.
Good Day
Anthony
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on August 24, 2014, 07:37 AM
Sorc,

The sacrifice brance is in the process of being removed. Two years ago, I cut a V cut about half way thru it.  Then filled with cut paste. Then last year, cut another half way again. This fall I'll remove it.

The idea is to slowly remove it so 1) healing can begin on the trunk, and 2) the tree can reroute a sap line between the upper part of the tree and the roots directly below the sacrifice branch to prevent dieback on the lower trunk.

The first year, I didn't decandle the sacrifice branch, which was a mistake. I should have. Most of the healing went on the sacrifice branch side of the V. This past year, I did decandle the sacrifice branch, and let another sacrifice branch go on the main trunk, to aid the healing on the trunk side. It's working better.

I also put in an approach graft below the sacrifice branch on the main trunk. The sacrifice branch built a lot of wood, on the outside of a curve, so I thought it may be a good idea to have a new branch there to take its place when it's gone.

I think it's taking, it's shaded by the sacrifice branch, so it's still weak. After the big branch is gone, it will be exposed, so I'll have a better idea. I'll leave it attached to its feeder branch another year.

I still have a couple long whips I've let grow in case I need more approach grafts.   Once I decide I don't need them, and cut them off, it will shape up nicely.

The top sacrifice is ready to go, too.

And, I have a new pot for it.

Big changes to come!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Sorce on August 24, 2014, 09:28 PM
Nice!

I look forward to seeing it!

Sorce
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 04, 2014, 01:29 PM
Today, I removed the old sacrifice branch. And cut back on the apex sacrifice. I'll probably finish removing it next summer after I'm sure summer candles are growing after decandling.

I also pulled needles and thinned excess buds (shoots) from last year's decandling. I'm also continuing to "chase back" foliage on the back branch. That is, shorten it. As weak interior buds (shoots) get stronger, I'm cutting back to them. So far, I've shortened that branch about 2 inches.

The new grafted-on main branch is still connected. I'm continuing to weaken the supply line to it by removing bark and cambium behind the graft. I've also applied a tourniquette of copper wire to reduce the nutrient flow. Hopefully this spring or summer   It will be time to cut it loose.

There are still some long untrained branches present. One is in the inside of the main curve on the trunk. I've been letting it stay to 1) soften the curve as it fattens that area, and 2) if I need to approach graft on another branch, I can use it as the scion.

I'm doing the same with another branch coming off the back. But the tree is very vigorous, and appears willing to bud back, so I doubt I'll have to use it.

I removed the wire on the grafted main branch as it was cutting in. I'll leave it be for a week or two, then come back and rewire.

Next steps:  I'll probably repot it into a shallower pot I bought for it in the spring. The current pot is deep, and I actually potted the tree a little deep. The actual nebari is really about 3/4 inch down, so this tree has more trunk buried down in the soil.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Sorce on December 05, 2014, 04:09 AM
Great lil feller ;D

Thanks for the update.

A wicked little tree this will be. Great taper.

Sorce
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Yenling83 on December 05, 2014, 02:01 PM
Sexy little tree you have going on there, can't wait to see it once it's show ready!  Have you considered playing with the potting angle at all? When looking at the front you have marked, I might consider tilting the viewers right side up just a hair depending on how the nebari looks after doing so.  Although this is definitely not needed, I might like the look of the movement and flow with that adjustment.  Great job with this tree Adair!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 05, 2014, 02:54 PM
I guess I should take a picture from the side. This tree will have the apex very much leaning forward towards the viewer, the way the Japanese trees do. It really is beginning to shape up nicely. Once I cut the apex sacrifice off, and remove the other extraneous branches I've let grow unchecked, the tree will send all that energy to the parts of the tree that will be the permanent design.

I'm taking my time with this one.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Dirk on December 06, 2014, 05:19 AM
Great tree Adair. I love it.
I do admire how you take the necessary time to develop your tree.
takes a lot of patience (I can tell!)
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: John Kirby on December 07, 2014, 10:01 AM
Adair, very nice. In yourclimate the main branches should mature quickly and start to bark up and give it that mature look. I agree with yenling on the tilt.

You are doing well my friend.

John

(Minnie-me says hi and is awaiting your January visit. Or so says the Pine Whisperer.)
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 07, 2014, 02:40 PM
Thanks, John.

The new pot is like the one Godzilla is in. It would be easy to play with the potting angle. The root system on this tree is shallow. I might tilt it up from the right, and back a little. 

I don't know if Minnie-Me is looking forward to my visit so much, but it's really going to be happy to see Diasuku!
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 16, 2015, 12:09 PM
An update to the progress on this tree:

The appriach graft of the first lower branch may, or may not have taken. It looks to me that it has been pushed out, rather than fused in. The approach graft I placed on the other side of the tree appears to have taken. It's much smaller.

I removed the wire it had back in the summer, and I've just rewired it. Over the past couple years, I've been cutting back some overlong branches, trying to get foliage closer to the trunk. Decandling has created lots of smaller twigs all over. The tree us vigorous, send has back budded well. Those new buds were not decandled to allow them to get strong. So the tree has a mix of long and short needles.

Another technique I've been applying is pruning to get each branch to have a triangle shape (when seen from above).  The branches were mostly fanned out when I got it, so they had a rounded shape. Getting there. They've backbudded well, and soon I'll be able to cut back to the new backbuds.

Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Adair M on December 16, 2015, 12:12 PM
Next spring, it will get a half bare root repot. At that time, it will get a new pot, and a slight angle change:  tilted back and to the left a little.
Title: Re: My next victim... er... Project! Yeah, that's what I meant!
Post by: Dirk on December 16, 2015, 03:11 PM
Great tree Adair, and great progression.
Thanks for sharing