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Author Topic: JBP: The Paradox  (Read 2323 times)
bwaynef
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« on: March 25, 2013, 04:37 PM »

So, I came across a JBP with the start of a good nebari, nice movement in the trunk, branches in suitable places, and buds all over the branches.  The problem being that the tree is in poor health.  Entire branches without a needle.  Most (ok, probably all) of the needles are discolored, badly.

The paradox is this:  there are small living buds all over the tree, needle or no.

My first step to rehab it was to repot it.  I bare-rooted half of the tree, and loosened the edges around the other half (and top/bottom).  It apparently was in pure akadama that'd disintegrated.  I imagine that it came to the nursery in that soil, and I remember that tree being at the nursery at LEAST by spring of last year.  I was able to clear away the old soil and replaced it with Akadama, Pumice & Lava.  Any mycorrhiza present was negligible, so I added some from the bottom half of a jbp rootball that'd been severed and was literally covered with the stuff.  I also wired the tree into the pot.  I then sprayed the foliage with Daconil to take care of any fungus that might be causing the discolored needles.

Now, I come to the masses for wisdom.  What can I do to/with/for the tree now?  I have a heat mat, a 4-bulb fluorescent t8 setup, a greenhouse, ...and a wife that tolerates my foolishness all too well.  (That is, she won't object too loudly if I bring the tree inside (and certainly not if I move it into the garage).)

See the attached pictures.  I know common wisdom is that a tree w/o needles is dead ...but those buds certainly look green.


ps.  I offer my apologies for the inconsistent coloration of the pictures.
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Adair M
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 07:20 PM »

Wayne,

It looks like needlecast, and i'd keep it far, far away from the healthy trees.

About the "dead" branches with live buds...

Peter Tea, in his blog, showed an experiment he did with a black pine where he plucked ALL the needles!  And I do mean all.  There were live terminal buds.  The tree produced new adventitious (summer) candles,  Maybe even some back budding.  (Don't quote me on that...) I think you ought to go check out his blog!

You might also want to give it a light spray of lime sulphur in a couple of weeks.
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bwaynef
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 08:44 PM »

I'm familiar w/ Peter's blog entry where he stripped a JBP of all its needles.  I also know that tree was very well taken care of before that procedure (in good soil and well-fed).  Regardless, these buds ARE still green.

What kind of care should I provide this tree now?  Do I keep it artificially warm?  When should I start feeding it?

ps.  Is needlecast that contagious?  Does Daconil not work against it?
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John Kirby
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2013, 05:45 AM »

I would suggest hitting with Daconil every 3-4 weeks. You are in spring mode the lime sulphur is less effective.
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Adair M
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 07:59 AM »

John,

Spring is teasing us here in the South!  There's actually snow on my roof!  Not much, we had blowing flurries all day yesterday.

Good to know about the lime sulphur.  And Daconil. 

A follow-up question:  I, too, have recently aquired a tree with needlecast.  Not nearly as badly affected as Wayne's, but I'd like to get rid of the needlecast.  Would repotting help?
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bwaynef
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 08:11 AM »

When I had the ear of someone who should know, I was told that JBP grown in a mix of Lava, Akadama, & Pumice don't get needlecast.  I've also read that the recommended preventive for needlecast is to have a strong growing tree.  I doubt the two (good soil, strong growth) are NOT related.  So, I'd imagine that if the soil isn't good, repotting would certainly help the situation.
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John Kirby
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 11:47 AM »

Strong trees tend to not get sick, period. Repot, get growing, fertilize well and use a preventative. Remember, we work hard to control growth which tends to weaken trees, thus the need for protection.
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Herman
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 04:54 PM »

Hello guys

Is Daconil a contact spray fungucide ? Have you guys considered using a systemic fungucide like Benomil ? I have trees with needlecast(bought them with it) , so after becoming aware of the fungus, I contacted our forestry department and asked around for someone with knowledge, who workes in the big pine plantations here. They told me that the fungus only attacks hardened off needles aka mature needles, and the time to use contact spray would be in summer before the new needles harden off, then again in autumn to follow up on the summer sprays. The guy then prescribed Benomil to kill off any of the fungus already inside the needles, because contact spray would have a hard time penetrating that deep to kill it. It may also be one solution to prevent needlecast, as systemic stays in the plants system for quite some time.

I use a chlorothalonil (excuse typos) and a copper based fungucide as contact sprays, didn't know lime sulphur works, that's really handy info, thanx mr Kirby

Wayne I really hope your tree pulls through, will hold thumbs for it to do so Smiley only advice I can offer is to watch the water, that pine is going to use very little water with so little amount of foliage. Overwatering....(You know the rest)

Good luck

Herman
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Adair M
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 09:45 PM »

Herman,

JBP benefit from a fungus in the soil: mychorrhiza.  It is a white fungus, and it forms a symbiotic relationship with the roots as it helps the tree absorb nutrients.  Note, however, it does not grow well in continuously moist soils.  It needs to dry out to grow.

When I was at Boon's repotting trees (in all organic soil) the root balls were almost solid with the stuff. 

It is so beneficial that some even add mychorrhiza to their soil mix.  But that's necessary.  It occurs naturally, as the spores are in the air.  If the conditions are right, it will appear.  (Another reason to use an all inorganic mix.  It dries out better for the mychorrhiza.)

Now, given all that, I would think that anything you put in the soil to kill fungus would prevent the mychorrhiza from growing, and I'd rather have the mychorrhiza.

Also, always take what the "forrestry guys" say about growing trees with a grain of salt.  They don't think about growing in pots, they grow for maximum lumber and height.
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John Kirby
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 07:05 AM »

Adair, the fungi (and other organisms that facilitate mycorhyzal formation) are symbionts that have veery different needs and susceptabilities than other organsims like those that cause needle cast. I use systemics as well, I live in a very humid enviroment. One mote, nenomyl has not been available in the US for over a decade, I used tp use it!
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bwaynef
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 08:20 AM »

Adair, the fungi (and other organisms that facilitate mycorhyzal formation) are symbionts that have veery different needs and susceptabilities than other organsims like those that cause needle cast.

Are you saying that care need NOT be taken to protect the soil/roots from Daconil sprayed on the foliage dripping onto the soil?
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augustine
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 08:36 AM »

Chlorthalonil is daconil and your spelling is correct, just looked it up.

Mr. Julian Adams, an accomplished bonsai artist and grower, recommends the use of daconil when growth starts, keeping foliage dry and not allowing ground splash to reach your pines.

Best,

Augustine
central MD
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rxa
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 09:03 AM »

Interesting what you say about your setup. I recently put up some LED spot lighting for my garden trees. I noticed a while back, since I put the lighting in, right at the bottom of the trunk of one of the more 'sparse' pines (nigra) buds had formed right at the base of the trunk. These have developed just above the strong point. I'm looking forward to seeing if they become anything this year out of curiosity more than anything. Do you think this is heat or light related?

Back to your point, I would suggest you keep the additional light on the tree as you are probably already doing, don't prune anything the tree will need to absorb any energy left in whatever green is left and hope for the best. You are already aware it is up to good care and patience from now on. Please send an update at some point, it is always interesting to see how these things end up.
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Chrisl
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 10:29 AM »

Adair, the fungi (and other organisms that facilitate mycorhyzal formation) are symbionts that have veery different needs and susceptabilities than other organsims like those that cause needle cast. I use systemics as well, I live in a very humid enviroment. One mote, nenomyl has not been available in the US for over a decade, I used tp use it!

John, do you and Boon use powdered mycorrhizae on anything else other than JBP?  Like, for all repots no matter the species?
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John Kirby
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 06:08 AM »

I have never used a commercial innoculant. The fungi are species/genus specific so what is in a blck pine mix won't likely work for other species.
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