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Author Topic: JBP seedling results  (Read 5843 times)
izk_zero
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« on: August 11, 2013, 01:26 PM »

This year is my first try at JBP propagation. I followed the example posted by Jonas Dupuich http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/07/01/how-to-create-seedling-cuttings-japanese-black-pine/
I started with 100 seeds. 94 sank and were cold stratified for 1 month then planted. About 55 sprouted. Of the total 55 that grew, 25 of them were root pruned at 5 weeks old. Of those,
  • 21/25 regrew roots.
  • 10/21 had good root spread
  • 11/21 regrew a new taproot

Materials are attached at the bottom. No bottom heat or humidification or fungacide or organic media was used.
A picture of 4 uncut seedlings next to 4 root pruned seedlings after 2 and 1/2 months is also at the bottom.

Conclusion: root pruning killed 4 of the seedlings that were pruned and half of those that survived regrew a new single tap root. The seedlings that were not root pruned and left in the seed starting containers had more growth and comparable amount of root spread possibly due to the limited amount of growth medium available.

These are my results in Arkansas zone 7 a/b. It is consistently hot and humid here, which may account for much of my success.
I would appreciate comments and critiques. I'm here to learn and I can answer any questions today. I'm pretty busy.

Thanks for reading! Smiley
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 01:27 PM by izk_zero » Logged

0soyoung
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 03:27 PM »

Thank you. I love data.

I speculate that regrowing a tap root suggests that the seedling wasn't really root pruned high enough on the stem; i.e., in effect the tap root was just shortened (severly) and not actually removed.

Any support for this notion in your 10 vesus 11?
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izk_zero
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 05:54 PM »

Thank you. I love data.

I speculate that regrowing a tap root suggests that the seedling wasn't really root pruned high enough on the stem; i.e., in effect the tap root was just shortened (severly) and not actually removed.

Any support for this notion in your 10 vesus 11?

That could be it. The site I used a reference showed the cuts being a few millimeters below the color change on the stem. I probably did the same thing. However, if I were to do it again, I wouldn't root prune and transplant until now ~ 3 months of growth. Even then I would only shorten leggy roots, not remove them completely.

Thanks for the input.  Wink
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Anthony
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 05:49 PM »

I accidentally severed above the root zone of a 3 month old seedling. Dipped it in liquid rooting hormone and restuck it in the growing medium [ sifted gravel with a very little peatmoss [ for the sterile organic part ] ] and it regrew new roots.

Additionally, the seeds used were from a pack offered by Bonsaiboy and I figure it came from Dallas Bonsai, and obviously Japan.
I just soaked for 24 hours and planted all, even the floaters. You normally get 30 something seeds, with 25 or so germinating and thriving.

However, a year or two later as many as 10 may die, through no adaptation to our Tropical climate and often the ones that die don't grow normally, usually long and slender [ mutations? ]

I carelessly did some attempts at cuttings last year, and have so far two that are still alive and - may - be growing, but I won't touch them until December.
So a week ago I did another batch of cuttings to see if I could master this technique.
Seeds of Japanese Black pines have to pass through quarantine for us and I would prefer to just grow my own cuttings.
Good Evening.
Anthony
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izk_zero
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2013, 08:56 PM »

I accidentally severed above the root zone of a 3 month old seedling. Dipped it in liquid rooting hormone and restuck it in the growing medium [ sifted gravel with a very little peatmoss [ for the sterile organic part ] ] and it regrew new roots.

Additionally, the seeds used were from a pack offered by Bonsaiboy and I figure it came from Dallas Bonsai, and obviously Japan.
I just soaked for 24 hours and planted all, even the floaters. You normally get 30 something seeds, with 25 or so germinating and thriving.

However, a year or two later as many as 10 may die, through no adaptation to our Tropical climate and often the ones that die don't grow normally, usually long and slender [ mutations? ]

I carelessly did some attempts at cuttings last year, and have so far two that are still alive and - may - be growing, but I won't touch them until December.
So a week ago I did another batch of cuttings to see if I could master this technique.
Seeds of Japanese Black pines have to pass through quarantine for us and I would prefer to just grow my own cuttings.
Good Evening.
Anthony

Thanks for the input Anthony.
All the seeds that grew have done well so far, we'll see how many make it through their first winter. I've read about people successfully air layering black pine and now that I have a small batch I might try that. I hope your cuttings fair better this year. Even if all mine die I can say that I tried.
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John Kirby
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2013, 06:27 AM »

Um, the technique works very well just takes a little practice. Other than the original English translation of a Kinbon piece in Bonsai Today, there was a nice thread here and then Jonas has done a great pictorial on Bonsaitonight.com. It is kind of like most things, the first run may not yield the optimal results. This run may have been impacted by the relatively low germination rates and seed quality/age.
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izk_zero
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2013, 05:40 PM »

Um, the technique works very well just takes a little practice. Other than the original English translation of a Kinbon piece in Bonsai Today, there was a nice thread here and then Jonas has done a great pictorial on Bonsaitonight.com. It is kind of like most things, the first run may not yield the optimal results. This run may have been impacted by the relatively low germination rates and seed quality/age.

Thanks for the advice John,
You're probably right, I was surprised that I only killed 4 out of the 25 that I root pruned. I did use Jonas' example for the most part and it was really helpful, but I have no idea about the quality/age of the seeds I used. I guess I'll have to wait about 10-20 years to see If they were good quality or not.
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John Kirby
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 09:07 PM »

No, the quality is determined by the germination rate. I pretty much believe that for most of us JBP is JBPk. Mikawa sourced seeds are on average likely to have better bark, but only to a limit.you live in a great place to grow black pines, enjoy!
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arihato
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 06:29 PM »

I have used this technique for creating ShoHin Larix now for some 25 years.
I cut the seedling very short



As this gives the best lower branches possible, and low branches means more taper.

If cut at the right time then I normally have 98% success rate.
The right time is when, after the cotyledons open, the stem changes from green to pink/purple to light brown. The pink/purple stage is when to cut.


Just to show off one of the results. A Larix kaempferi sown in 2000.


« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 10:39 AM by bsgModerator » Logged

« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 06:37 PM »

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Gaffer
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 07:36 PM »

I have just recieved my jbp seeds from Oregon . I have lights and a huge heating platform and am wondering how long to scarify in the fridge. I live in the northwest and was wondering when would be the best time to start the process . With  good conditions would January be to early to start or can I start the process anytime after scarifying . With my climate zone it is not abnormal to be frost free by the first of April . Any advice would be happily accepted.
Thank you
Qualicum Brian
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Yenling83
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2013, 02:09 PM »

Anyone know where to get some JBP Mikawa sourced seed?  I'm really interested in getting some.  thanks!
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Kajukid
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2013, 11:03 PM »

Mishobonsai.com my friend. They should have some
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Sorce
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2014, 06:32 AM »

Hey Gaffer.

Any sprouters!?
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izk_zero
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 10:34 AM »

__UPDATE__

This is the 2nd year of my JBP experiment. So far 27 of the 100 original seeds have survived the winter and my repottings. Right now they are all under 5 inches (13 centimeters) and many have branching about halfway up. My ultimate goal would be the milliion dollar pine, but I would settle for a $20K pine. The next step is to come up with a plan for maximum taper and growth while retaining decent lower branching.

Thanks for reading!
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