Author Topic: JBP seedling results  (Read 10774 times)

Jay

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 05:30 PM »
Izk.....  You do realize the million dollar pine takes several generations to achieve. Even the $20,000 pine may take a second generation to achieve.
Do you have a future generation(s) in mind?

I think it,is great to look to the future, just want to make sure you are being realistic...... Or am I wrong?
Jay
 

izk_zero

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 09:33 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Jay!

I know I wouldn't be able to realistically grow something like the million dollar pine in my lifetime, but I do have some interesting ideas to get me to the $20K pines.
  • 1. Multiple sacrifice branches at the same time. (If 1 sacrificial branch = 1X amount of trunk growth, then 5 sacrificial branches = 5X trunk growth) ?
  • 2. FERTILIZE and GROW in increasingly large containers, no triming or pruning. Pretty much forget about them until I get decent trunk size then graft low branches.
but seriously, I'm going to have to plant them in the open ground and let the "sacrifice branch" grow ridiculously tall to achieve the amount of trunk size I want in 20-30 years. I don't know if its even possible to maintain lower growth with a 30 foot high sacrifice branch. I have never seen or heard of anyone that did that. No risk no reward right?

My fear is that if I do exactly what everyone else is doing that my trees are going to end up looking like everyone else's. To answer your question, I do know what to expect using the colander method and I will probably still follow the online examples with some of my surviving seedlings.

--These are the examples I'm referring to. (credit to Jonas Dupuich and Jason Schley for images)--
 

Gaffer

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 01:42 PM »
Hi source
Yes. I have about 20 red, 9 black, and 0 white. Is it normal for whites to take longer to come up or were they just bad seed.
Thanks.
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 08:52 PM »
White needs a warm stratification, they will come up next spring.
 

Adair M

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 09:42 PM »
Sure, you can have multiple sacrifices. Then you'll have multiple huge scars to deal with.

There was a time they were doing that in Japan. Maybe 25 to 30 years ago. I think they stopped because of too many scars.

A 30 foot tall sacrifice would also yield a huge scar that may never heal over.

See my thread "my next victim..."  That tree has a pretty big scar that will take a long time to heal. If it ever does. It's had lots of sacrifice branches to build that trunk. I'm in the process of removing one using the V cut technique. Another year to go. I've also had to graft on a couple of branches. I'm letting the apex run (another sacrifice) to help heal old wounds.

It was grown at Telperion Farms, and I've seen pictures of their field. Some of their sacrifice branches grow up to 15 feet or so.

 

Sorce

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 06:34 AM »
Nice Gaffer. Sorry IZK. Didnt realize you were on here still. I really like the start you have with that pine..... ;D
 

izk_zero

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2014, 08:42 PM »
Thanks Adair! that's a wicked tree! and no problem Source. I needed to get on here and at least post some pictures to show the progress my seedlings have made. I can't wait till I have something more impressive to share with the bonsaistudygroup community.  8)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 08:45 PM by izk_zero »
 

Sorce

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2014, 08:01 AM »
IZK. This info is impressive.

I noticed the oil-dry. I just started using that. Any thoughts on watering on your hottest summer day.

Id love to hear your take on using 8822.  I hear some folks detest it.

Nice progress by the way. And thanks in advance..
 

izk_zero

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2014, 10:48 PM »
Hi Source,

About the Oil Dry, I like the fact that I can see when it is dry and that it doesn't break down easy. I've only been using it for a year now but so far I like it. I'd recommend sifting it to get all the powder out before using it. I heard that the dust can be harmful so I wear a mask.

Here is a picture I took before mixing all the parts together. The oil dry is in the top middle.
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2014, 01:32 AM »
The purposes of seedling cuttings are at least two-fold:
1. To develop radial rootage at the same level around the trunk;
2. To shorten the distance between the nebari and latent buds.

Just cutting the roots back does not result in either.

Oil- Dry is what it is. I wouldn't recommend it, there are good sources for Haydite (lite weight ) that used straight and sifted to 1/8th to 5/16ths provides the essential elements of rapid draining yet moisture retentive . It will function to allow you to fertilize mightily and water 4-6 times a day to pump up  big trunks in container culture.
 

Leo in NE Illinois

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2014, 02:51 PM »
IZK
instead of shooting for one 20K tree, why not shoot for 20 shohin trees, each worthy of 2K. The 2k goal is achievable in a mere mortal's life time.

Multiple sacrifices are good, but cutting them off before they leave scars too large to heal over well, and then selecting new branches as sacrifices to complete the job is a better strategy than using mega-huge sacrifices.

grafting on branches also can create unattractive scars, so preserving low branches is very important.

I applaud the project, and your energy and your forward thinking. This is the nurseryman's part of the bonsai hobby. I think sometimes it is not given the credit it deserves, with most of the attention being paid to the last stages of development and exhibition.

There is a modest body of info on this aspect of development, but not as extensive as final styling for exhibition articles.
 

Sorce

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2014, 06:10 AM »
I agree with Leo. Except that maybe IZK is immortal!  ;)

The lack of good material here (u.s.) is partly due to the lack of folks doimg these starts.

If we cull 80 of 100 seedlings, then only a few are any good of 20, some will die....

If all of us undertake this project, our great grandchildren may have a 2mil tree!

Happy planting!

Sorce
 

Leo in NE Illinois

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2014, 03:45 PM »
I have every intention of being able to continue with bonsai well into my 90's. But that means I only have some 30 + years in which to get my trees ready for exhibition. There is pleasure in growing nice stock that the next person will be able to finish. I raise orchids too, and often make hybrids. I sell the seedlings, it gives me great pleasure when a customer tells me that they got a national award on a seedling I produced. Right now my customers are at about 18 national AOS awards. I get the same pleasure from the nursery process of creating quality pre-bonsai, this is definitely an enjoyable aspect of the hobby. 
 

izk_zero

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2014, 07:30 PM »
Here are some photos I took today. These are ones I left in 6" pots in-stead-of transferring into colanders.
 

izk_zero

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Re: JBP seedling results
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2014, 07:46 PM »
I'm afraid that whichever way I choose to go (20K or 2K tree) they need to go into the ground for a good amount of time. The problem I have with that is I don't myself have a yard I can plant in yet (I just graduated college and I'm stuck living in a rental until I can save up for a home of my own). My friends/family have space but I wouldn't trust any of them to care for them yet, perhaps when they get a little larger.

Mr. Kirby, Thank you for the feedback. I have decided after performing the seedling cutting technique that I would have been better off not doing it. It only slowed the development of my seedlings and didn't significantly improve the root density or lower the buds. I collected some native pine seedlings (loblolly) that I did not perform the taproot cutting on and want to see if I don't get similar results. I haven't heard of anyone using loblolly for bonsai, so I thought I might try.