Author Topic: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?  (Read 7466 times)

Josh

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JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« on: October 11, 2011, 01:55 PM »
Ernie Kuo wrote a brief, yet very interesting article about JBP development, in particular needle/candle treatment.  (Bonsai Today #48, pp 23-26.  He developed a year long system for development of needles and candles for JBP in development, in which he demonstrates the ability to get growth/ramification in a single year comparable to 2 years using the more traditional candle cutting technique.

Anyone tried this?  What was your experience?  I thought this may be of interest for those with experience with JBP.

Thanks, Josh
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2011, 03:55 PM »
So, what does it say?
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 07:16 PM »
I have read the Kuo article. I guess I wonder where those trees are today? I know hat a number of folks in the deep south (texas and Florida) have tried decandling on a nearly continual basis. I have never seen a good tree done this way (not the technique's fault, just the material chosen), I guess I would need to see this done over a number of ears and see how uniform and strong the trees are. My suggestion is that if you want to see how this approach works, try it. If it works well I am sure that a lot of folks will look at it again, though I don't know why it didn't catch on after it was published back in the 90's.

JOhn
(I am heading down to the basement to pull out Volume 48, I looked at it a few years ago after someone brought it up on another site.)
 

nathanbs

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 10:21 PM »
it would be interesting to see if Ernie still does this technique today. I can ask him next month as i see him every 2nd sunday of the month.
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 09:41 AM »
I would be interested in hearing if he oes, when Cheng Cheng, the Si-Diao master, was at the GSBF convention about 5or 6 years ago, Erne was the translator and Iasked him about it, he was just starting o answer when he got called off to help with Workshop and I had to leave before we could finish the conversation. It looks compelling.
 

bwaynef

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 09:59 AM »
For those w/o BT48, ...anyone care to share what it is that's being discussed?
 

Dave Murphy

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 10:33 AM »
For those w/o BT48, ...anyone care to share what it is that's being discussed?
Developing secondary and tertiary ramification in one growing season on JBP.
 

akeppler

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 02:06 AM »
When reading anything to do with bonsai and fast growing techniques coming out of California, keep in mind that black pines grow all year long. We fertilize all year, and prune all year. Getting two years growth in one year is not that big of deal out here. Coastal climates are a little slower due to temps, but they are still temperate conditions needing no winter care and still continue growing.
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 08:30 AM »
Al,
I fully understand you point, however the Florida and South Texas trees that folks try year round cycles on don't develop as well as those done "conventionally". My trees develop fast enough using the "contemporary" bud and needle management techniques. It is always interesting to see new takes on the approach. And yes, the climate in The warm part of California does simplify things.
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 08:40 AM »
Agreed. 

A few years ago I allowed a traveling instructor, at his insistence, under his supervision, to talk me into removing fall buds on one of my black pines.  Predictably, the next year the tree did nothing but set buds for the following Spring.  When he returned a year later I brought the tree in to review the results with him. 

He said:

Quote
...yeah, mine did the same thing this year.  The tree looks healthy enough, so it shouldn't die.  With the needle work that you're showing on your other trees you don't really need to do this technique.  I would guess I've only put you 2 years behind on this tree.

 :-[
 

Woody

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 11:02 PM »
Hi Nathanbs

Just wondering if you had a chance to ask Ernie Kuo about whether he still uses his previously published technique of spring and fall candle cutting?

Thanks

Shaun
 

Woody

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 12:47 AM »
This question is guess goes to mainly to Al but if anyone else has something helpful to add, I would be most grateful.

Al you mentioned that you prune your JBPs year round. Do you find this results in reduced needle size?

I ask because I live down in a tropical region of Australia with a climate similar to to Hawaii's. We get almost continuous growth year round so the methods typically advocated on forums and books are largely irrelevant given they are usually based on temperate climate conditions.

The way I understand it, the method developed orginally in Japan and propagated elsewhere works by cutting candles late in the growing season thereby causing the subsequent secondary growth to be limited by the shorter growing season available before the onset of winter dormancy. However the mechanics of this method fails in warmer climes where growth occurs continuously. Thus in my mind needle reduction can only occur through other means. Limiting fertiliser is an option but a poor one. Perhaps increasing ramification is another. Maybe allowing trees to become pot bound could help.

My trees are growing strongly and seem to thrive in the tropics. I don't seem to need chemical fungicides. My only problem now is how to achieve a reduced needle size.

Any advice or words of wisdom would be so appreciated.

Shaun

P/s: should try to get the bonsai today article discussed earlier in the thread?
 

nathanbs

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2011, 09:31 AM »
Have not talked to Ernie yet, however i will make a point of it. Have you tried removing then entire candle in mid-late july to see what the resulting needle length is. Im in So. California so im not sure how we compare, I think you  are still warmer year round. Either way the tree has a cycle of budsetting that can be tricked by removing the first set of candles when they are fully elongated typically, this triggers a second budset that im thinking as long as you time it right the tree will only dedicate so much time to producing these second buds. In addition you certainly want to zap the tree from making any additional energy by needle pruning all old and alot of the new needles once they have hardened off.
 

nathanbs

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2011, 10:06 PM »
to avoid any further confusion its better to refer to the needle removal as thinning instead of pruning.
 

Woody

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Re: JBP Experts, needle/candle treatment by Ernie Kuo?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2011, 07:23 AM »
Nathanbs

Thanks for your helpful reply.

You are correct in thinking that my climate is somewhat warmer than southern california.

I haven't quite started needle reduction on my tree as they aren't up to that stage of refinement yet. For now I'm concentrating on trunk and branch development. However that being said, I've previously cut candles and pulled needles in higher strength areas around the apex to direct growth to lower branches. The effect was more balanced growth and even needle length. The thing is the effect was short lived as we get almost continuous year round and the next flush of growth erased previous efforts. So thus I think there is hope.

I'll be looking forward to any info you can pass on about Ernie Kuo's technique.

Shaun