Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Rkovo on November 25, 2012, 12:46 AM

Title: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 25, 2012, 12:46 AM
I bought a jbp this summer from a guy who was downsizing his collection
it is shohin or at least has the potential to be a good one. i did a little work over the summer creating a new leader and decandling what i believe to be the first time. it responsed well and i have lots of new shoots to work with. my problem is that the tree is in not good soil, it looks mostly broken down organic some form of loose potting soil. i think it may be suffering from root rot.i am beginning to lose smaller backbuds which shriveling and dying and i think i have lost a lower branch. the rest of the tree is green.
I live in the San Francisco north bay and we have had wet one week heat the next. should i do an emergency repot now or just try to keep the soil way dryer during this winter and repot first thing spring.
and i have heard mixed things about what to repot in such an emergency;
course river sand?
100% akadama?
Boon's mix? or if anyone is familiar with Grove Way nursery in Hayward, the great guy who owns it, has a fantastic mix
100% pumice

Im sorry there are no pictures, i took pics but for whatever reason i cant seem to post them on this forum?

Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Adair M on November 25, 2012, 08:14 AM
I've been to Groves Way, with Boon.  You're right, he's a very nice guy.

If you are going to repot, I'd certainly go with Boon's mix.

Next, since you are in SanFrancisco, I'd take it to Boon, and let him work with you on it.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 25, 2012, 10:11 AM
Johnny is an extremely nice guy, though his trees are not the most healthy I've seen.

In the Bay Area you can start repotting as early as December.  I would certainly reach out to those in your area that can help evaluate in person.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 25, 2012, 12:39 PM
I would love to take the tree to Boon, but unfortunetly I cannot afford any of his services, I am hoping to be able to take his intensives one day, but there is no way for me pay for them now.

So Matsu, if I understand correctly I may be able to get away with waiting until December and repotting them, while accessing the damage?

I am a member of Marin Bonsai Club, but the tuesday meetings are tough for me to make because I work tuesday nights
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 25, 2012, 12:47 PM
You could always join BIB.

Hard to say without seeing the tree in person. Got any pics?  Maybe Jeremiah will chime in and offer in-person advice.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: cbobgo on November 25, 2012, 12:49 PM
I've been doing some repotting already, waiting another week for December to start woould just be another week of decline for your tree.  Go ahead and repot it now into a good free draining mix.

- bob
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 25, 2012, 03:11 PM
You seem to be nervous about the health of the tree.  I would still advise that you reach out to someone in your area for help.  Perhaps Bob would be willing to help?
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 25, 2012, 03:16 PM
Also, if you're having trouble posting photos, please check out this post (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/forum-feedback/how-to-post-photos/).
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: cbobgo on November 25, 2012, 04:28 PM
Good suggestion Matsu.  I'm actually going to be driving up to Brent's on Friday, I could stop in Marin and take a look at your tree if like.

- bob
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 25, 2012, 07:19 PM
YOU GUYS SEEM TO BE VERY HELPFEL TO THIS GY MAYBE BECAUSE HE IS IN WEST COAST?
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 25, 2012, 08:24 PM
Hmm, not sure why you're yelling.  Helping people is kind of what we do here.  If he were close to me I would be more than happy to invite him out to a local study group meeting.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 25, 2012, 08:33 PM
Thanks Matsu!
 
I would if you weren't a ways away.
 
Bob, thank you for the offer and that would be great, but i do not want to impose.

The more I think on it and research the more I feel that I will probably do a fast repot if the weather holds tomorrow.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on November 25, 2012, 09:49 PM
"a fast repot." I guess that means that you aren't going to bareroot the front half of the tree, all the way up under the base. Slip potting or dilly-dallying around the roots aren't going to fix the root rot problem. You really need to get in there and open up the roots for growth. And don't forget to tie the tree in good and snug to protect the new roots once they start growing.

Go see Gremel, I think he may still be leading a study group in Sepastapol
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on November 25, 2012, 09:56 PM
Jay, check your post, you will see the advice was the same, one was to go see Matsu when he does his repotting workshop, the other was to contact Gary Wood, a really knowledgeable bonsai guy. This post is different because he lives within 50 miles of a lot of Bonsai expertise, and it doesn't make much sense to try and stumble through something you can be taught fairly easily. Take care.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: cbobgo on November 25, 2012, 10:13 PM
Rkovo, it would be no imposition.  It's pretty much on my way up to Brent's.

Taking it to a Gremel workshop would be good too, I'm not sure if he is having one this weekend or not.

- bob
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 25, 2012, 11:02 PM
thanks Kirby,
but by fast repot i simply meant taking care of it first thing. 
is bare rooting a good idea this late in the season? But I will by no means do a half assed job.
of course i will remove damaged roots and do a proper tie down.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on November 26, 2012, 07:32 AM
Just checking, pretty interesting to see what some do "to save time".

For JBP in the Bay Area, you can think of yourself as being at the beginning of spring season, reptting ends a month or two earlier than many other places. I will repot the trees I have in Hayward in January and early February, here in the East, late March to early May. John
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: bwaynef on November 26, 2012, 08:36 AM
is bare rooting a good idea this late in the season?

I won't comment (...because I don't know...) about the timing, but just wanted to point out that its a bad idea to FULLY bare root a jbp.  The recommendation is to do half at one repot, and the other half later.

If you knew that then you can ignore this comment.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: nathanbs on November 26, 2012, 11:38 AM
is bare rooting a good idea this late in the season?

I won't comment (...because I don't know...) about the timing, but just wanted to point out that its a bad idea to FULLY bare root a jbp.  The recommendation is to do half at one repot, and the other half later.

If you knew that then you can ignore this comment.

Is this correct or only when dealing with old hard compacted soil?
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on November 26, 2012, 12:06 PM
When taking out of old/undefined soil replace 1/2 with bare rooting, if the tree is really old, or terribly weak, then a 1/4 or 1/3 may be preferable. That is why a really experienced assessment is best. After the tree stabilizes over a number of years, you will again need to remove the old soil, over time.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on November 26, 2012, 05:02 PM
So are you saying bare root 1/2 the root ball, leaving the other half untouched until the second repot?  Seems strange given that the soil is mucky and in terrible condition. 
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on November 26, 2012, 06:40 PM
Christi, for you, do as you like.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 26, 2012, 10:56 PM
i only said that because i wish i was in the west coast. haha, all the knoledge and resourses so to speak. Im going through this type of problum with my tree as well. i think the best thing to do is have a plan and exacute it ,like you im out of pocket. i think that the information that the members hear are trying to give us is good, they recommeding bare rooting half, keep inmind that when we go in there and start missing with the roots it kinda stresses the tree puts it in a shock. So we have to be carful not to get to caried away with the roots, that why they recommed only bare rooting half less stress. we have to keep inmind all the elements of the tree in order to be succesesful in the past i was to aggrisive with some of the starter trees that i had and they all died im starting to see the big picture all the forces that keep the tree alive starting with the most inportant one the roots . reminds me when Mr miygi told danel about the tree having to have strong roots.. thanks guys
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 26, 2012, 11:13 PM
matsu bonsai i just wanted to know if there is a fee for attending your repoting seminar id really like to go. Im in tupelo ms and thats may be 6hr drive ill be honest my experience on black pine is just watching boon repot his tree on dvd now for the 100 time. ive read good things form you, i wish to aquire some knoledge from your repoting cession.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 27, 2012, 08:07 AM
No charge for regular meetings. From time to time we have special guests which will require a small fee to help recover some of the cost.  I'll send you some details privately so we don't completely hijack the thread. :)
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: bwaynef on November 27, 2012, 08:46 AM
So are you saying bare root 1/2 the root ball, leaving the other half untouched until the second repot?  Seems strange given that the soil is mucky and in terrible condition. 

That's precisely what's being said.  It isn't the optimal soil for the tree to be in, but its better than ending up with a dead tree.  If you choose to go at it a different way, let us know how it works out.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on November 27, 2012, 10:45 AM
So are you saying bare root 1/2 the root ball, leaving the other half untouched until the second repot?  Seems strange given that the soil is mucky and in terrible condition. 

That's precisely what's being said.  It isn't the optimal soil for the tree to be in, but its better than ending up with a dead tree.  If you choose to go at it a different way, let us know how it works out.

Wow, you guys are sensitive!  I only asked, not with any intention to do anything.  Just trying to understand your reasoning leaving it in shitty soil.  Getting dangerous here to simply ask a question...back to lurker mode now. :-\
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: bwaynef on November 27, 2012, 10:50 AM
I mentioned letting us know how things went because I can think of a few things I might would do to experiment with the results, ...but don't feel particularly safe in recommending them ...like using a chopstick to allow room for adding some soil into the half of the rootball that isn't barerooted, or scratching the edges of the poor-soil-half and making sure that exposed roots from it are surrounded by good soil.

In theory, this would improve things, but I don't have the experience to back that up enough to recommend you do it on your trees.  If you choose to do any of the above ...or come up with something different, ...let us know how that works out for you.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on November 27, 2012, 12:20 PM
Chrisi,
You leave roots on 1/2 of the tree with soil on them, this is insurance that functioning roots are available to support the tree. However, since you have already prined the bottom of the entire rootpad, and cleaned up the roots around the edge of the pot, cleaned upthe top of the entire rootpad, them barerooted 1/2 of the remaining roots, you only end up with 15-20% of the original roots still in soil. As wayne inferred, leaving roots sticking out of the edge of the non-barerooted section helps to get the new root growth started despite the bad soil.

This is why I suggest that the first time you do this, at least, that you do it with someone who is very experienced, who may vary the approach a little but not the goal of completely replacing the iolf soil in two repottings. Sorry if I was short.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on November 27, 2012, 12:36 PM
Thanks guys for the thoughtful responses.  That makes MUCH more sense now, and logical.  And I too am sorry for being short John ;)
I'll definitely only do half then as you are right, after removing bottom sides and top, I can easily see not having much of the original root mass left.  I hadn't though of it in that way..again, Thanks!
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 28, 2012, 02:08 AM
i should be be the one saying Thank you for the well thought out time and responses. I have yet to make my move, because it is currently my only jbp, I also have a Pinus Nigra or austrian black pine. but i need to make decision quickly before it goes farther south. I am just AFRAID. I know it might sad, but I consider my trees my friends.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: cbobgo on November 28, 2012, 12:58 PM
I'll offer again to stop by friday afternoon if you are available then.

- bob
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 28, 2012, 07:08 PM
Bob, Thanks again for the offer and I was trying to make it work for my schedule but I will be in class all day friday.
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: cbobgo on November 28, 2012, 07:11 PM
OK, well, I will be heading through on my way home Monday afternoon if that is any better.

- bob
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: bigDave on November 28, 2012, 08:47 PM
baby steps
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Rkovo on November 28, 2012, 10:37 PM
that would be great Bob i should be around all day monday. Ill shoot you a PM and we set something up. THANKS
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on November 29, 2012, 10:51 AM
LOL Dave!  That's a funny as hell movie!  And what a generous offer Bob!
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on December 04, 2012, 10:12 AM
Chrisi,
You leave roots on 1/2 of the tree with soil on them, this is insurance that functioning roots are available to support the tree. However, since you have already prined the bottom of the entire rootpad, and cleaned up the roots around the edge of the pot, cleaned upthe top of the entire rootpad, them barerooted 1/2 of the remaining roots, you only end up with 15-20% of the original roots still in soil. As wayne inferred, leaving roots sticking out of the edge of the non-barerooted section helps to get the new root growth started despite the bad soil.

This is why I suggest that the first time you do this, at least, that you do it with someone who is very experienced, who may vary the approach a little but not the goal of completely replacing the iolf soil in two repottings. Sorry if I was short.

John, making notes for next spring.  I realized I didn't follow up and ask, so should I finish the rest of the repotting process in 2014 or style it then, and finish the repot in 2015?
Thanks!
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on December 13, 2012, 11:44 AM
John, did you happen to see my last question above?  I just want to write down my plans over the next few yrs.  So next spring, '13, as you suggested above.  Then, should I finish the rest of the repotting process in 2014 or style it then, and finish the repot in 2015?
Also, should I use a hose to get the 1/2 rootball to a bareroot state?

Thanks John!



Btw, updates:  The trident maple did just fine this year.  Not as much growth as I suspected, but it's very healthy and hopefully I'll get more growth next yr.

And all those shimpaku's I planted last spring, incl the one where I loosely stapled the roots to wood, are all doing fine.  I didn't plant them in the right location last yr...too much shade.  So I'm going to transfer to another plot of grow beds next spring.  I'll be able to take a shot of the stapled roots to show you and Boon it worked ;)
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: John Kirby on December 15, 2012, 10:40 AM
Ah, so now it is loosely stapled, going for the fused roots look?

Repot 13, if healthy style 14, if healthy finish repot 15. If you use water, use your masakumi style gentle water, not a pressure nosle.

Good luck
Title: Re: jbp emergency!!!
Post by: Chrisl on December 15, 2012, 11:31 AM
Thanks So Much John for your recommendations!  I'm still trying to learn the 'timing' of working with trees, this helps me a lot!

<Ah, so now it is loosely stapled, going for the fused roots look?>

Yes, I lightly stapled the root spread out.  I used 1/2" staples and only stapled like 1/4".  So they should just be spread out and not meant to fuse them.  I'm real curious what the roots look like next spring when I relocate them.  I'll try to do as little damage to the roots system.  Fun little experiment, planted 10, one stapled, several others over tile and some just straight in the ground.   The latter grew the best not unexpected.