Author Topic: Japanese Black Pine Acidification  (Read 16200 times)

Chrisl

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2011, 12:16 AM »
John, I've seen his maples, and all those cakes.  I too thought, based on an experiment this spring, that the maple in the dense organic soil developed far faster and healthier.  This in comparison to the other two, on in Miracle Gro soil, and in ground.  All young maple plants I got from the yard/same tree.  But I didn't fertilize any of the three...so maybe it does come down to just giving the plant what it needs...and organics simply have more nutrients than the soil or in ground/unfertilized.

Thanks for having me take a second look at those trees. 
 

John Kirby

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2011, 10:36 AM »
I will defer, let me edit my last comment " please diregard the success of the professionals and don't waste the akadama, it may become rare in the future". Please post pictures as your trees develop, I am always looking for better ways to grow trees- ones that become good bonsai.
 

Chrisl

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2011, 12:18 PM »
I hope you didn't interpret my last response to disregarding professionals opinions/experiences.  My point was that you can achieve the same results using inorganic media, but with tons of fertilization.  That's why I'm here, and asking around what others use.  And yes, the majority of "professionals" I've talked to uses akadama and encouraged me to give it a try.  Which I plan to pick up a bag or two at the upcoming show. 

And will do John on the updates next summer after spring transplanting. 
 

Chrisl

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2011, 03:49 PM »
Here are some better pics I hope
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 03:55 PM by Chrisl »
 

Chrisl

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2011, 10:59 AM »
Chrisl,

Do you have room to put a hoop house over your bonsai benches?  That's what I've done after seeing the same a number of different places.  Plastic goes up for winter, then down for the growing season.  It has worked well for me so far.  http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/plastic-goes-up/

Here's the one I went with, http://www.growerssupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;gs1_high_tunnels_cold_frames;pg105158f.html

Matsu...or should I call you John?  I never know what to call you and keep going back and forth ;)

I wanted to Thank You again for suggesting this greenhouse!  I finally convinced my other half that I should have an overwinter greenhouse (since I spent so much on some new stock this year I just "had to" have some winter protection) lol.

I was going to go with a 6'X5' but that's just too small.  So I'm going to order next week, a 6'X10' model.  I would've liked the 8'X10', but the 6'W one already takes a 1/3 of the width of the yard, and the 10' long is over half the depth of the yard.  And I have two German Shepherd dogs I need to accomodate.  At least I'll be able to get one row of benches on each side on the 6'W model, and a somewhat narrow walkway.  8'W would've been much roomier.  But oh well, at least I can get one and I'll count my blessings because even with spousal approval, I still got lucky.  I had to go to the City of Chicago Permit office and ask about greenhouses on residential property:  anything permanent, needed a full permit process.  A lightweight greenhouse is ok as long as it's up only during winter....geesh! 

But anyway, I talked to Farmtech Growers Supply earlier this week and was told I didn't need to add any extra purlins for our weather here.  But I forgot to discuss the anchoring it down as our soil is not the firmest, but since this is a temp. setup, I can't put the anchors in cement.  So I hope the supplied anchors will work.  How did you deal with the with the entry way?  Putting up a solid sheet of plastic at the closed end will be easy, just curious about if you built a doorway? 

I did have one question Matsu, how exactly level does the planned site have to be?  The instructions say it has to be perfectly level, but my backyard has a slight slope and was just wondering esp. since you have a much longer model.

Thanks for your help Matsu!
Chris
 

John Kirby

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2011, 11:57 AM »
Chris,
Go to Lowes and get two mobile home anchors like "Arrow Storage Building Ground Anchor Kit AK4", you only need two of the anchors, the tie to the center ridge with light rope or heavy twine. This will keep you from chasing your hoop house down the street in December when one of those gusts come up.  Like this:

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/hoop-house-construction/

http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/storm-damage/

Chris J is a friend of mine and I had some materials around so I bent up top rail for an 12' by 20' (or 30'?) poly house. we got it assemble and covered in a good day, on a Sunday I drove from Fayetteville to Otawa, we put up the polyhouse and afterwards I drove up to where I was living and working in South Dakota. The two one things I didn't have were a couple of bags of concrete and 4x4's to anchor the ends, or any other kind of anchors. I mentioned it to Chris, but pretty much in passing and took off. Well, the house wasn't anchored, it made it through the tough winter, but in the spring when the ends are opened it becomes a huge sail. So, now whenever I talk to folks about polyhouses I place EXTRA EMPHASIS on ensuring that they anchor their structures, if I had followed up with Chris, a simple anchoring would have saved him a lot of grief.

Anchor your structure.

John
 

John Kirby

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2011, 12:33 PM »
Chris,
I am going back to the Maple discussion. I am not trying to be mean, a know it all, or contrary. But, your maples will never develop as bonsai unless you can really control the water they receive, the fertilizer they receive and the amount of oxygen that they receive. So, when your maples are bonsai and not just seedlings in pots (I have a few thousand of these in high organic mixed with perlite commercial mix (I would never use that muck from miracle-gro, it is almost anoxic)) I would strongly suggest that you put them in to an inorganic (or mostly inorganic) mix to develop them. WHy am I sure of this? Well, I have purchased a lot of down and out deciduous trees, typically imports, that were put into high organic mixes and they slowly decline, lose branches, etc. once we get them barerooted, placed into an appropriate soil mix and managed correctly they bounce back with a fury. Just a thought, John  
 

Kajukid

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2011, 12:38 PM »
Chrisl,
i see you put the tree in the ground...i want to that with 3 of my pines...what type of soil do you use? do you put plastic under the soil to be able to lift it out the ground easy, when its ready???
 

John Kirby

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2011, 12:49 PM »
Kid,
no don't put plastic underneath, it will drown. Just plant it in the gound and dig it out when it is big enough. Have you met Jim Gremel yet? He is a fixture in bay area bonsai, one of the best in the US. He has thousands of trees in the ground, he moved from Berkely to Sebastapol to get enough space for his studio and to ut trees in the ground. He also is very willing to give you the information tht you will need to succeed.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 12:58 PM by John Kirby »
 

Kajukid

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2011, 01:24 PM »
okay thanks John..no I never heard of him before...do you know if he has a website or anything?
 

John Kirby

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2011, 01:26 PM »
Google Jim Gremel
 

MatsuBonsai

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2011, 07:33 PM »
I did have one question Matsu, how exactly level does the planned site have to be?  The instructions say it has to be perfectly level, but my backyard has a slight slope and was just wondering esp. since you have a much longer model.

My yard sloped away a little.  I put some timber down along the outside to give something to anchor the plastic, and leveled the pipes in the ground by running string and making some quick measurements.  Not perfect, but seems to be sufficient.

For a "door" I just rand 3 vertical strips of plastic, 2 on the side fixed, and 1 in the middle fixed at the top only, then smashed down with cinder blocks to "close" the door.

John Kirby's suggestion is good for the DIY project, if you've got the materials, knowledge, and time.
 

Chrisl

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2011, 08:29 PM »
First off, Wow! What a terrible mess that was....Chris, I sure hope you didn't loose much!  I truly feel for ya as I know how I'd feel if that was me.  If you're reading this, how did things turn out?  Hopefully broken pots instead of broken trees.  One is theoretically replaceable and the other isn't.   

Ok,  I now get your point John of needing to anchor this thing now.  I too hadn't thought that much about the anchoring part.   So Thanks for the link below and the reality check ;)

<Go to Lowes and get two mobile home anchors like "Arrow Storage Building Ground Anchor Kit AK4", you only need two of the anchors, the tie to the center ridge with light rope or heavy twine. This will keep you from chasing your hoop house down the street in December when one of those gusts come up. >

Those are perfect...30" augers right?  The specs don't exactly say it clearly. 
But it made me think to reexamined the .pdf's of the greenhouse.  I found the "Reference Document" which I had totally ignored. And there it was, to my delight, I can install the anchors inside!  Much better than the 3' setup, dog catastrophe just waiting to happen....which is why I blowing off the the anchor issue.   
These inside anchors are just plain awesome.

And John, I live just two blocks from Lake Michigan and it can get pretty gusty.  Also, I only have 2' of soil, then it's sand.  I just wanted you to know all the facts ;) Just to be sure, you still think I need only two centered augers for the whole 10'?  That'd also be fantastic if so! 



And regarding the JM's, I have already taken that advice for the 2 successful air layers I put in a  80-90 Turface:10-20 Peat.
The third air layer I decided to try 100% Tuface.  Seems the growing trend from what I've been reading from people I respect, total inorganic soil for both deciduous and conifers, or a min. of organic to retain moisture in hot environments. 

I have 6 maples all are thriving, all in diff. soils.  So I'm going to be real interested in the JM I put in 100% Turface and see how the growth rate will be between the various soils.   One good thing about using 100% inorganic soil is the need to watch the moisture level more closely.  So I'm spending more time with my bonsai's, watching and learning how they grow.  I'm enjoying them more. (Plus I finally finished putting urethane on my new cedar shelves and the contrast with the green trees is fantastic right now!)

Kajukid, I agree with John, I'm going to just dig them out, carefully.  I put them in the ground because at the time I didn't think I could get a greenhouse.  And I was worried about winter.  But if I'd known, I would've just kept them in their growing pots.
I plan on taking them out of the ground next spring for their first style.  They all have tons of branches, some at ground level.  So  I really need to clean them out, and set the basic structure.  And then, I'll put them back in the ground, and leave them there. I plan on a 'repot' every two years.  And at this point,  I can finally lay on my stomach to work on them.  I put some stepping stones in the bed so I can see the other sides.  And lastly Kajukid, you asked about soil,  I will be replanting them in probably a mix of Turface and grit instead of soil for the reasons mentioned above.

Matsu, Thanks!  I was hoping there's a little fudge factor.  My yard also just slopes away a little.  Good idea on using extra wood to level it out.  And that's a clever doorway too.  Thanks for sharing! 
Oh, and as you see above, I'm definitely going to use John's idea.  I'm extremely handy thank goodness! I'm going to need it soon lol
 

Chrisl

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2011, 01:45 AM »
I've reconsidered the in ground tree's.  I'm going to leave them in the ground for a few years and only do the basic styling now.  Figured I'd have better success as I've been told they really don't start kicking in, adding girth to the trunks after the 2nd year in ground.   Besides, less I mess with the roots the better they will be.
 

Alain Bertrand

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Re: Japanese Black Pine Acidification
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2011, 03:29 AM »
I have between 100 and 200 trees in the ground in my garden. Of course, they grow faster in the ground than in a pot if soil volume is really the limiting factor of growth, that is if you don't transplant them as often as you would do in a pot , that is every 2-3 years for a deciduous. If you do that, then the differential in growth speed becomes far less important, and even for small trees, those in a pot grow *much* faster, especially if you use a mix with more water retention  that you would do for a bonsai or if you can water several times a day with a nutritive solution. As I added  to this no-so-evident speed advantage the fact that tree in a pot have far better nebari, I came to stop growing new deciduous trees in the ground. I still do for pines above 5 years because if feel that pines don't loose their nebari quality in the ground as fast as deciduous.

For example, the following A. palmatum is a 10 year old cutting and look at its diameter, though it has never been in the ground I feel that it is enough growth for ten years. Buried nebari is great on this face and very very good on the other.   I                                  
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 03:40 AM by Alain Bertrand »