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Author Topic: black pine with a cluster of branches  (Read 5472 times)
Herman
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« on: November 03, 2012, 02:40 AM »

Hello guys

I really need some help with this tree!

It has good qualities and then some bad qualities, though I have never grafted, I am prob going to have to graft branches into place on this tree.

There's a sacrifice branch very close to the soil line though, which is a big plus

I set some airlayers on the branches I want to remove from the tree. Otherwise it would look like I'm attampting a broom style lol...

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Adair M
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2012, 11:00 AM »

Herman,

How close is that secondary branch down low to the nebari?  It might make a nice twin trunk.  You'll need to allow the secondary trunk to grow while you suppress the main trunk so it can catch up a bit.  What is your idea for a style?

You need to start removing some of the branches from the whorles.  If you don't you get knobs which create reverse taper.

While your tree looks heathy, it would do better in a proper pine bonsai mix.  Less organic.  Is it too late to repot there?  Have the candles started to extend?

Good luck with the airlayers.  JBP is not as easy to airlayer as other species.
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cbobgo
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 10:03 PM »

that bulge where all the branches come out is a definite problem.  I think you will need to remove most of them, leaving just 1 or 2.  And then carving out the bulge into a shari.

- bob
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Herman
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 12:49 AM »

Hey guys

Thanx for the replies

Unfortunately it is too late to repot, its moving on to early summer already. The branch low down on the trunk is about a cm up from ground lvl, its way too thin to try and develop into a secondary trunk?. I've found some pumice after about three years of searching, so I will have some to make a mix with. Do you know the affects of LECA(expanded clay agregate) in pine bonsai soil?

The cluster has to go! So this fall all of the branches I've layered will come off, wether they have taken or not. 

Herman
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 01:20 AM by Herman » Logged

MatsuBonsai
John Callaway
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 08:23 AM »

Jin and shari don't last on JBP in nature and are not typically found on JBP bonsai. I would suggest cutting out the buldge and letting the scars heal. JBP grow fast.
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J

Herman
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 08:40 AM »

Thanx John

I was looking at that cluster today and I agree with John, but for other reasons. Its kind of an akward place for a jin/jins, plus I don't really like much deadwood on my trees, it should be insignificant and not be the main feature, to my taste. I'd rather carve it out in spring after I have removed those branches this fall.

The design will also be much clearer when those branches are gone and the main treeline is exposed more. I'm hoping for some backbudding on the main trunk as well, it will be exposed to more sun.

Can anyone help me in regards to soil mixes for pines? Here is a list of mediums I can get

Pumice 3mm-6mm
Zeolite 6mm-10mm/ 2mm-3mm
Expanded perlite 4mm-6mm
Expanded clay :
 LECA 7mm-12mm
Crushed hydroton 3mm- 8mm
Hydroball 8mm-10mm

Stuff that's cheap and readily available are:
Pine bark chips
Composted pine bark
Washed silica river sand 2mm-4mm
Crusher stone varying sizes
Peat moss
Palm peat
Spaghnum moss
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MatsuBonsai
John Callaway
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 09:17 PM »

I don't have personal experience with all the listed ingredients, but for JBP I would stay away from organics. A nice mix of two to three ingredients of similar size that balance water retention and drainage would be your best bet. Plenty of food, water, and light.
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J

nathanbs
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 12:10 PM »

I would cut off 2/3rds of the branches from the whorl and prune back the remaining upper branches to the first node. This should be more than enough to stimulate a pretty significant back budding on your fairly young JBP. Once the new buds get stronger and healthier(approx 1 year, maybe longer)cut the swollen head off of that monster. I personally have had bad luck doing this on a less than perfect health JBP or one that was repotted close to the same time as the pruning. I would wait a good year between the heavy pruning and the potting. Otherwise I have dealt with a very similar, common problem on approximately 20-30 JBP with all but one living.
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Herman
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 02:35 AM »

Hello guys

Hmmmmmm, I really can't not put in organic material. It will kill the tree here in the african sun, the temp has been high every day now since september, everyday high of 96 up to 100. I'm going to stick to roughly 20 to 30 % organic and the rest inorganic. Will repot the tree after it has recovered next year or the year after that, even though the soil is really bad, I'm watering the tree twice a week now, since they seem to be going into heat dormancy.  Maybe use a rebar and drill holes into the rootball to fill up with agregate... Will remove some branches this autumn, and wait for the branches to die back into that whorl, then carve it later, maybe the next spring in two years time. Then cut back on top?
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John Kirby
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 12:16 PM »

I always hear people say they can't get by without organic, folks in Phoenix don't need it, but choose what you will.

There is a nice piece about South African Bonsai in the latest Bonsai Focus.
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Adair M
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 07:01 PM »

Herman,

You would be wise to listen to the advice of Mr. Kirby.  He knows of which he speaks.

Meanwhile, in the heat of the summer, you can water JBP daily. If they are in the proper soil.
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Herman
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 02:31 AM »

Hey Adair

The problem is its not in the propper soil, its still in nursery can soil, very fine very organic...and the tree is now in heat dormancy...
So I will water twice a week at the least, until I find the appropriate agregate, then I will use the rebar technique as prescribed on bonsainut...

And now listen, I'm not discrediting mr John Kirby's advice. I will interact with him with respect, he is much older than I am, I have respect for my elders. But then I must be handled with respect in turn...its not a given Wink.

 we don't get most of the wonderful agregate here that keeps water for the tree, I have to make do with what I can get atm, if organics is so bad, don't make off hand comments, address the issue by helping me work out a mix with the list of agregates I've provided in the post above. If no one is interested in doing that, then make peace with my soil mix...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 02:46 AM by Herman » Logged

MatsuBonsai
John Callaway
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 07:32 AM »

What's the rebar technique?
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J

Herman
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 08:38 AM »

Hello John

It involves taking a piece of rebar and drilling holes into and through the rootball, then fill those holes with agregate, you guys would use pumice, or drystall...I will prob have to use decomposed granite or high oven ash slug clinkers...

Its when you can't repot but the soil is really compacted, poor in oxygen and not well draining.

It aerates the soil as well as helps with drainage.

That's the only solution I can use to better the soil it's in atm.

I will try and repot this coming spring in 2013
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Chrisl
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 10:45 AM »

Larry Jackel also does the same to collected Ponderosas.  Rebar and fill in aggregate 2x/yr during growing season to help slowly replace duff with aggregate.
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