Author Topic: Systemic pesticides in relation to season  (Read 11229 times)

Dan James

  • Legit New User
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« on: February 12, 2015, 03:59 PM »
One area I have to admit I'm not extremely knowledgable in is pesticides.

I have a collected pitch pine and I just noticed it has some tiny bore holes through all of the small branches in the top half of the tree . I was going to apply a systemic today as the tree is in winter storage and the soil is not frozen . I've never applied a systemic when a tree is dormant . Is the protocol the same? Should I wait  a month until the tree wakes up here or apply full strength as normal?

Thanks

Dan

 

J.Kent

  • Jr. Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Our economy exists only because of our environment
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 04:05 PM »
I would wait until the sap is slowing.  Note, however, that a systemic won't do much for many borers.  Most borers do their damage in the heart of the tree, not in the living cells. 
 

Dan James

  • Legit New User
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 04:43 PM »
J.

You may be right, but i hope not, because I'll have a dead tree :)

As I understand it, water comes up through the Phloem ( inner part ). Wouldn't that mean the systemic pesticide soaked in the soil would eventually reach all layers / parts of the tree? And, if borers mainly attack the heartwood, then how would they kill trees? Since we carve out heart wood all the time in bonsai, but leave the cambium layer alone ( and some inner layers for moisture retention) , since it's the live part. Seems bored must munch on some cambium too .

Someone with superior horticultural knowledge needs to chime in here. * nudge* Owen
 

Owen Reich

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
  • Thanked: 7 times
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 06:01 PM »
Southern Pine Borer is one killer of pitch pine.

Nick Lenz recommends using a trash bag or tent to fumigate for borers on larches; something I've done on other species when the chemical had a re-entry interval that concerned me.  Kept in shade and bagged for about 12 hours. 

On a very broad note, tons of information is available on the web from different universities, plant healthcare specialist websites, and basic web searches.  Agricola is one great resource as are "samples" of academic publications. 

While I enjoy assisting in the spreading of information, sometimes the search of it will aid in the information staying with you.  Just my opinion.  If you don't receive a quick response on bonsai forums, it's possible the answer may be easily found. 

I nudge you to find the answer and share it  :).
 

Dan James

  • Legit New User
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 07:05 PM »
But , Owen, I wanted the easy way out :)

I did a lot of research on my own about this today before I even made the post and found contradicting and broad information, which is why I posted at all. I went looking the best way I could . I found an article by Purdue university about borers-too vague.

This is a reoccurring problem in bonsai clubs . No one knows what specific chemicals work for specific species and all people get I'd very obvious and broad advise like " use an oil spray ", use a systemic ",  " put a bag over it and fumigate it "

Ok , what spray? What systemic ? What gas ?
I'm not talking about a list you find on the back of a bottle at Home Depot. . That's not helpful .

I never studied horticulture , which I regret , because it would be easier for me to know where to search for and understand what I'm reading , but I'm not much different than most.

This is why I asked these questions , hoping that those who know would be reasonable enough to answer .
This also begs the question; what's the point of joining a bonsai study group if most participating feel it too troublesome to answer or help out ?

It's not like my post was for the purpose of showboating a new tree I acquired or even a boring beginner question .

The purpose of sites like this is to spread reliable information about bonsai easily and efficiently because we all have 9-5 jobs and searching for this information isn't easy . Plus, communal bonsai studies should be fun....but perhaps I'm wrong....
 

DorianJF

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Easy Going Bonsai
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 01:46 AM »
Hi Dan

Although I cannot give advice on how to solve the problem that you have, I totally understand your concerns and frustrations.

Searching the Web majority of times leads one into a nest of contradictions the only puts one further in the dark.
This is why I asked these questions , hoping that those who know would be reasonable enough to answer .
This also begs the question; what's the point of joining a bonsai study group if most participating feel it too troublesome to answer or help out ?

It's not like my post was for the purpose of showboating a new tree I acquired or even a boring beginner question .

The purpose of sites like this is to spread reliable information about bonsai easily and efficiently because we all have 9-5 jobs and searching for this information isn't easy . Plus, communal bonsai studies should be fun....but perhaps I'm wrong....

Absolutely agree with you on this 100%.  Forums are about learning from others experiences and then contributing your own experiences, trials, errors etc for the rest to benefit.

In saying that I totally understand where Owen is coming from.  Sometimes posts on forums are only read and no advice given which then pushes us to basically either search the web harder and work on a trial and error method.

What I do hope you will do is post on how you went about solving your problem (if nobody give specific advice) and what the end result was.

Looking forward to hearing about your success.

Cheers
D
 

Owen Reich

  • Hero Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
  • Thanked: 7 times
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 10:09 AM »
Dan, I understand your frustration.  My comments were not meant to offend.  It's a common issue online for instant gratification which I understand.  You didn't mention you'd done research on the front end.

I did also suggest a few means of addressing the issue.

Part of the issue is giving pest and disease advice without photos, without knowing if the person spraying is incompetent, if they can acquire chemicals known to work in their area (Canada for example is tough), etc.

Permethrin trunk sprays are a good preventative measure for trees commonly attacked by borers.  Generally applied now in storage (at nurseries) and again as tree just starts to wake up on trunk and heavy branches for deciduous trees.  Never used it on pines.  Many insecticides are nerve toxins that will harm you, the applicator if not used under controlled conditions.  Not really sure of liability to me for providing opinions / advice, but likely a reason many bonsai people don't weigh in on pest and disease questions.

Application of a systemic like Imidicloprid will keep future infestations from happening and potentially kill larval stages of borers inside the plant if it's translocated into the tissue.  This will happen very little while the sap is down and soil is frozen.  

Take a piece of copper wire and jam it into the hole to attempt to impale the borer(s).  I like to heat the tip of the wire up.  Then take a syringe full of concentrated insecticide and squirt a few rounds of that in (while observing safety protocols on label) wear googles or other glasses and a mask.  Glove up and do in a well ventilated place.

I would encourage you to take a Certified Pesticide Applicators course to learn the in's and out's of pest and disease management.

The information is out there, for pesticides and which ones to use.  Yes, it does require digging, but on more than a few occasions, I've done a search to try and answer questions on this forum and learned something new in the process.

Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) are required by law to be available for pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc.  Directions for application and suitable species are often 3/4 of the way through the text.  

Try contacting a local extension agent of entomology department to give a talk (highly likely to be free) at your local club on species commonly used in your area.

The Ortho Problem Solver is a nice book on the matter as well.  

Quote from another thread on this site from 2010 by Rockm:

I've had luck getting rid of termite infestations using cotton soaked in insecticide plugged into borer holes in an old collected boxwood. After plugging as many holes in deadwood as I could find, I wrapped the trunks in plastic wrap and set the whole thing out in morning sun and left it for a day. It drove the termites out and killed them.

Borers are tougher and harder to get at. They tend to poke their heads out of their holes occasionally (I've had a few on collected cherry trees), usually in the morning. You have to go borer hunting with a sharp pointy stick or piece of wire. Sometimes you have to physically follow their tunnels through the wood--tearing up the trunk in the process--this can cause major or minor damage, depending on how deep the tunnel goes. Borers do tend to hang out in deadwood, but they will eat live tissue and can girdle a trunk in an afternoon...


« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 10:11 AM by Owen Reich »
 

J.Kent

  • Jr. Forum Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Our economy exists only because of our environment
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 10:12 AM »
Quote
No one knows what specific chemicals work for specific species

1.  The pesticide label should give you some info.

2.  Ask your local county Agricultural Extension Agent.

3.  Get the "Ortho Home Gardener's Problem Solver" (about $35.00), an invaluable reference for plant disease and insect damage.
 

DougB

  • Legit New User
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 10:52 AM »
Your best option is to contact your local County Agricultural Extension Agent.  They are experts and actually work for you state ag university.  And their expertise is free (that is after your taxes are paid).
 

Dan James

  • Legit New User
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 04:09 PM »
I got really busy this last week, so I didn't have much of a chance to respond.

I'm not interested in arguing over posts.  I do believe Owen is right in saying that people should be responsible for finding the answers to simple questions on their own. We do, however, have to give folks the benefit of the doubt that they did put worth some effort before hand , especially with more advanced questions such as pest control solutions on specific species.


Here's what I found. I hope it's helpful and if some one else has had experience with this info , it would be great to hear their thoughts.

I found a natural remedy that utilizes beneficial nematodes. They apparently climb into borers and other harmful pests and infect them.
The two which are available online for around $20 are steinernema carpocapsae and Heterorhabditis bacteriophora.

the other potential solution I found after researching emerald ash borer control.
It's a systemic called Safari 20g.    Here's a link: http://www.valent.com/m/professional/product/labels.cfm?ssid=43   It kills a broad variety of pests ( a lot of borers )and can be used all season according to the label . You can buy it on amazon ( very expensive ) and there's a lot more info about it , just google the name.

I'm not sure of what pest I even have. Here's a pic of the tiny holes.

Hope this research helps someone out there ...

Dan
 

SpongeMann

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 11:04 PM »
Hi Dan the holes look like they are made by symbiotic ants. I have them on my pyracanthas and on my laurel oaks. I used Diatomaceous earth and they die but they come back. My neibors trees have to have some also. And they make there way back.
 

SpongeMann

  • Full Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Systemic pesticides in relation to season
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2015, 11:04 PM »
Good luck