Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => General Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Yenling83 on March 11, 2014, 12:23 PM

Title: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 11, 2014, 12:23 PM
I've never seen an ume over rock, do you think this would work?  We generally use trees which have roots that easily fuse together like maples for root over rock.  I'd love to see your pictures of non-traditional types of trees or any unique root over rock creations that you really like. 


Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: thomas tynan on March 11, 2014, 01:22 PM
I have never seen ume-over-rock. In articles that I have seen in Bonsai Focus - the bonsai growers in Japan that really focus on prunus mume - often soak the roots in fungicide bath during the re-potting process. I would think this could be difficult with an embedded rock. Also- not sure of the character of the exposed roots. Maples and Larch are my personal favorites - with some of Nick Lenz's root-over rock creations at the top of my list.   Tom
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 11, 2014, 03:33 PM
Thanks for the reply, yes I don't know if it would look nice either.  I'm just curious because I have not ever seen it done.    I'd like to post some pics of unique Root over rock, but every time I try i'm taken to a blank white screen.  It freezes on this screen and does not update.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: jlushious on March 11, 2014, 03:38 PM
It's usually because your image size is too big, I found that pictures I took with my DSLR did that (hi-res, big file) and those from my iphone didn't (low res/file size).
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Owen Reich on March 11, 2014, 07:13 PM
I've never seen an ume over rock in Japan to my recollection.  The "mainstream" bonsai media only shows the world a small percentage of the bonsai in Japan.  You see more diversity on blog postings, YouTube, and the travel pics of people who visit bonsai gardens IMO.  I have seen on rocks:  Acer palmatum, Camellia, Tridents (a ton), White Pine, Black Pine, Chojubai, Winter Jasmine, Star Jasmine (Trachelospermum asiaticum), Eleaegnus pungens, Pyracantha, Pseudocydonia, etc.

A number of old trees in major exhibitions have gone from root over rock to "rock inside tree"  ;D. 
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 11, 2014, 10:52 PM
JLushious thanks for the tip! that makes sense

Owen-do you think an Ume over rock could work?  What do you think the roots over the rock would look like? would the roots fuse? I have a landscape flowering plum tree in my backyard that I have been wiring movement in young branches, then air layering.  I think it may be Prunus blireiana, but i'm not sure exactly.  I was considering trying a root over rock for fun.  



Here's a couple root over rock I really like from Peter Tea's blog.  The Trident makes me want to experiment with root over rock, I like the unusualness of this.  What is the scientific name for the dwarf cumquat?  love these little guys. 
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Owen Reich on March 12, 2014, 01:19 AM
Pretty sure Fortunella japonica is the Latin name.  However, the one used for bonsai may be a selection or cultivar.  Not sure.  I say try it.  The fibrous roots on ume are fragile so the process would need to start with longer thick roots I think.  Try it but make sure the stone is nice .
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Don Blackmond on March 12, 2014, 07:57 AM
a major factor to this discussion is root development.  many species just are not suitable for over the rock development.  you want to see roots that form to the rock, melt onto it and look natural.  many species just don't do that very well.  roots fatten and harden quickly, staying detached and round, and looking like rope on top of rock.  they never truly look proper and are not necessarily pleasing to the eye.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: thomas tynan on March 12, 2014, 10:22 AM
I was looking at the Kunio Kobayashi book last evening; probably (20) different examples of prunus mume and not one was root-over rock. There were examples of flowering quince, trident maple and malus (crabapple) in the root over rock style. The quince and crabapple were quite amazing, and in some cases the roots have literally enclosed over the entire rock.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 12, 2014, 11:21 AM
a major factor to this discussion is root development.  many species just are not suitable for over the rock development.  you want to see roots that form to the rock, melt onto it and look natural.  many species just don't do that very well.  roots fatten and harden quickly, staying detached and round, and looking like rope on top of rock.  they never truly look proper and are not necessarily pleasing to the eye.

Yup, exactly why we see so many Tridents over rock.  I don't think i've seen a juniper over rock that looked really fantastic.  I know Kimura has done some great juniper on a rock, however the roots relationship to the rock are not highlighted like in the pictures I posted above.  I don't know maybe ume over rock is just bad.  Or maybe as Owen suggested you could do it with all ready large roots. 
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 12, 2014, 11:32 AM

The relationship between the root and rock does look very nice with Trident.  I'd love to see some of your fav root over rock.  Another pic I really like from Aiko Kondo-
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Don Blackmond on March 13, 2014, 06:41 PM
I've always like the way this one looks
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 13, 2014, 06:48 PM
Very nice Don! some nice trees in that picture, thanks!
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Owen Reich on March 13, 2014, 09:20 PM
One of my favorites at Kouka-en.  Acer palmatum.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Owen Reich on March 13, 2014, 09:28 PM
One of Kouka-en's client owned bonsai and one from an old Kokofu book.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Owen Reich on March 13, 2014, 09:30 PM
Nice trident
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Joshua Hanzman on March 14, 2014, 07:11 PM
Don the one you put up with the caption "always have liked this one", and Owen the second one in your group of 3 pictures, those are just stunning!

In the same light of this thread, does anyone have photos of chojubai over rock? I know someone mentioned it but I didn't actually see it posted....
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Yenling83 on March 14, 2014, 07:32 PM
Owen-Some very nice trees, thank you for showing!  I really like when the tree seems to be consuming the rock


Joshua-here's one that was in Kokufu, I took the pic from Michael Haggedorn's blog.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Don Blackmond on March 19, 2014, 01:16 PM
this isn't non-traditional, but since I was repotting it I thought I'd post it.
Stands about 30" tall with 3" trunk on the rock, 10" base and 14" nebari
For sale, by the way.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Minogame on March 20, 2014, 11:56 AM
Here is an Variegated Porcelain Berry - Ampelopsis brevipedunculata "Elegans" that is about 13 years old.  It was started from a root cutting, and was always in a small pot until being placed on the rock about three years ago. Taking a look at it prompted a cut back.
Title: Re: Non-traditional types of trees and unique root over rock creations
Post by: Sorce on May 05, 2014, 08:45 AM
Lost the old pic. Can be viewed here http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/example-of-spiritual-philosophy/ (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/example-of-spiritual-philosophy/)

Got that root moved!

On the backcountry thread I think we determined this is poplar, or cottonwood?

 ???

Photos