Author Topic: In Ground Training?  (Read 31686 times)

Owen Reich

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2011, 07:11 AM »
When you do repot the hemlock, don't get too aggressive as they hate root disturbance.  They also don't like their roots to get too hot once in a bonsai pot.  If you see any white fuzzy stuff on your tree in the future, it's wooly adelgid.  Imidacloprid soil drench will protect your tree from infestation occurring.  I believe a contact spray will kill existing ones too.  That's just for future reference.

As far as in-ground training is concerned, your goal is to encourage thickening where you want it and preventing it where you don't.  The trees should be allowed to grow out, but without a plan, you can create future problems.  Many people grow what are called "sacrifice" branches that are left unprimed to thicken the trunk.  They need to be promoted where you want thickening of the trunk / banches to occur.  If you know where the "front" is,  allowing sacrificial branches to grow from the back decreases the likelihood of ugly scars being seen later.  It's never too early to plan your future design for a tree; even if the branches you plan to cut may be there for year(s).  I'd leave everything as is until Spring for now.  When you do start cutting, especially on the maple, try to avoid large cuts on the same side of the tree and better yet, stagger large cuts individually over time.  Some pictures would help others to assist in the design considerations if interested in feedback.
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2011, 10:12 AM »
Owen, Thanks so much for responding, as well as the warning about wooly adelgid and Imidacloprid soil ....never heard of either.  Good info to know!

I'll try to get some pics taken today and post them. 

Can I make sure I understand you correctly regarding the pine?  You say wait until spring, then thin out the interior tree of those pin wheels, selecting sacrificial branches to leave on long term? 

For the spruce and hemlock, since there will prob. with no new buds on the trunk forming, I guess next spring, I should 'style' it, but also leaving sacrificial branches to help thicken the trunk over time?

Thanks again Owen for the guidance....I really didn't know the approach to what exactly you're supposed to do to trees in ground.  Much appreciated!
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 12:32 AM »
Rained today Owen...again.  I'll try again tom if the weather holds up. 

From what I've been able to gather so far though, it seems like there is basic "shaping and wiring" in ground.  I recall specifically Jim Gremel's Blue Spruces that he sells.  http://www.jimgremel.com/atlascedarsforsa.html
He's got some great trunks in those trees.  Wish I could afford one hehe

I'm surprised that there's not any basic write-ups on a blog about growing bonsai's in the ground.  For instance, write about the process from specimen, to getting it in the ground, what to do to the plant while in the ground...over yrs., and finally, from the ground to the bonsai pot.  I've found a tid bit here, a tid bit there.
But nothing in one source.  (It's probably out there somewhere that I just haven't found LOL) 
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 09:54 AM »
When you do repot the hemlock, don't get too aggressive as they hate root disturbance.  They also don't like their roots to get too hot once in a bonsai pot.  If you see any white fuzzy stuff on your tree in the future, it's wooly adelgid.  Imidacloprid soil drench will protect your tree from infestation occurring.  I believe a contact spray will kill existing ones too.  That's just for future reference.

As far as in-ground training is concerned, your goal is to encourage thickening where you want it and preventing it where you don't.  The trees should be allowed to grow out, but without a plan, you can create future problems.  Many people grow what are called "sacrifice" branches that are left unprimed to thicken the trunk.  They need to be promoted where you want thickening of the trunk / banches to occur.  If you know where the "front" is,  allowing sacrificial branches to grow from the back decreases the likelihood of ugly scars being seen later.  It's never too early to plan your future design for a tree; even if the branches you plan to cut may be there for year(s).  I'd leave everything as is until Spring for now.  When you do start cutting, especially on the maple, try to avoid large cuts on the same side of the tree and better yet, stagger large cuts individually over time.  Some pictures would help others to assist in the design considerations if interested in feedback.

Owen,  I finally got some pictures done.  As you can see, there's a lot of foliage, and one branch coming off just an inch or so from the bottom, that actually lays on the ground.  One pic was taken in a flat prior to planting it in the ground.  I hope these will help. 

In the spring, I hope to cut out some of the branches while in ground to, as you said "plan for a future design".  Just not sure which ones.  But I've got a lot of time before spring.... ;(

« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 10:00 AM by Chrisl »
 

Owen Reich

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 11:41 PM »
I was referring to waiting until spring for anything as you've been changing locations, soil environment, and chopping a lot lately from the sound of things.  Best to let everything settle physiologically and do a little more exploring in the bonsai information world.  Deborah Koreshoff's book is a good, solid read for people new to bonsai.  Also, joining a local club and finding some members with experience will also be highly beneficial as they know the local regional weather quirks and so on.

 

Owen Reich

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2011, 08:31 AM »
Sorry, I should be more clear. The Koreshoff book is a good overview of bonsai theory, history, etc.  Not a source for in-ground training.  Other members of this forum will know a lot about in-groud training so I'll leave it to others for advice as most of my experience involves container growing. 
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2011, 09:41 AM »
I agree Owen, I'm not touching it till next spring.  I'm not sure I'm going to get any concrete answers to the approach to in ground training as I started this thread 3 wks ago and haven't gotten a response directly addressing this question. 

I'm not totally new to bonsai, but I will hit up the club members at the next meeting, and I'll also ask around the Midwest show next weekend as I am new to in ground planting/training. 

Thanks for your help Owen, much appreciated!

 

coh

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2011, 12:19 PM »
Regarding the pine...keeping in mind that I've only very recently started working with them...but have done a lot of reading.

I think what you need to do largely depends on what you're aiming for. Large tree, small tree, how  much movement, where do you want the first branch. Seems to me from my reading that a lot of this has to be thought about/planned to a significant extent when you first start growing a pine, whereas for many deciduous species you can just grow a trunk and then build branches. This is because most deciduous species will bud back very easily on old wood/trunks, and can be cut back to stumps (removing all foliage). Pines won't backbud as reliably and cannot be cut back to stumps.

Have you read some of the stuff written by Brent Walston? He's got a website (evergreengardenworks.com) with lots of information, including a blog (there is a link from his main page). Some of the older blog posts have detailed explanations about training young pines. It seems somewhat complicated but maybe gets easier as you do it. At least, I'm hoping!

Chris
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2011, 01:24 PM »
That's what I was thinking too Chris.  Same for my hemlock and spruce.  I need to establish what I think the finished tree will look like (trunk movement, primary branches, tree ht for instance).  I did find Brent's articles and found some great info there, but I didn't check out his blog.  I'll def. check them out as I bet the basics are the same for in ground vs. in container training. 

Thanks Chris!
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2011, 10:57 AM »
Ok, I've been scouring for info, and I've seen now several pictures of trees grown in ground that were taken out for bonsai work.  What I noticed was the main primary branches and were already selected and grown. Basically, it seems the initial styling to form the basic structure of the tree was done in ground.  Or, done when it was taken out of the ground for root pruning.  Now I have a very good idea of what's expected in the whole process of maturing and growing bonsai's in ground.
 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2013, 10:37 AM »
I found this old thread I'd update.  The spruce which I boxed up died.  I root pruned it, and put in direct sun.  Didn't take long ;(

The hemlock is doing just fine.  I'll be an old old man before I see this little thing bulk up lol  Oh well, still interesting to play with. 
 

paulpash

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2013, 06:21 AM »
I have been growing raw material to train as bonsai in the ground for over 10 years. This is what I've learnt:

Coniferous trees which are hard to promote back budding on: It is vital to decide on a plan early doors and select the right branches for the right job. Branches are either 'keepers' or 'sacrifices' - prune everything else away or jin it. Keepers will form the final branch structure of your tree once the sacrifices have been removed.

Keepers need to be managed so that the buds and branch structure closest to the trunk stay viable and can be reactivated / reinvigorated to produce attractive pads later on. This means -Rule 1: they should not be shaded out by sacrifices or other keepers. This is the ONLY time you prune away sacrifices before they do their job, ie to thicken the trunk or branch at and below their point of attachment. Rule 2: The volume of foliage on keepers should not be allowed to race away to produce overly thick branches nor weaken to the point of failure - try to balance vigour and needle mass so that as your keeper branches have progressively less foliage the higher they are up on your stock. This will give you proportionate branch thickness when it comes to harvest time.

Sacrifices have two primary functions: 1/ To provide a method of increasing thickening of specific areas. Ideally this will be as close to the base of the tree as possible and at the back (as Owen has rightly pointed out). The sacrifices on my cedar (I usually have 2 - one extremely low, one at the top of the tree) is around 5 ft high at the base and 3ft at the top so you will need to let it race away to do it's job quickly 2/ Sacrifices can and should be used on the trunk to create interesting movement & taper - cut back sacrifices at the top of the tree to achieve this. Identify small shoots or side branches a little way up on the sacrifice that will continue the trunk line in an interesting way - imagine the tree in your mind and the shape you want. This process of cutting back and regrowing should produce diminishing levels of trunk taper and good movement. Locate and preserve keepers from the outside of these chops as described above.

Deciduous trees that readily back bud such as acers etc are comparatively simpler. We can get away with a lot more as overly thick branches can just be pruned, regrown or grafted. The basic principles hold though more so in terms of sacrifices. I grow or graft my branches later on for good callusing species - just make sure the branches don't get over thick before removal, esp if the branch is to the front.

Hope this is OK

 

Chrisl

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2013, 11:04 AM »
Good advice Marie, Thanks!  All my juni's are only 2 yrs old and just really to start to grow this yr.  Nice to have some ideas going forward.
Chris
 

paulpash

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2013, 04:42 PM »
With junis foliage volume is key to keeping the tree growing vigourously. If you whack it back like a deciduous tree it will sulk for years .....
 

Gaffer

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Re: In Ground Training?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2013, 09:14 PM »
I have found that when growing in ground the time period should be at least 4 years but half way through you must lift your tree and give it a bit of a styling prune fat roots and set it back in the ground with a tile under or whatever and leave Tito grow another 2 years and do the same again until your happy with your girth while cutting back the trunk.
Qualicum Brian