Author Topic: How would you like your roots cooked?  (Read 2877 times)

Markyscott

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 02:03 AM »
Pore saturation is a function of depth and grain size. It's a balance between gravitational and capillary forces.  Saturations are lowest near the soil surface and will increase with depth toward the bottom of the pot.  The easiest way for me to visualize what's going on is to consider a sponge saturated with water.  If you lay the sponge down flat a bunch of water will drain away (that's the gravitational water), but there will be a narrow zone on the bottom that is close to 100% saturated while the top of the sponge has less water.  If you stand the sponge on its end, the saturated zone will have the same height,  but a lot less of the sponge will have those high saturations.  The top of the sponge will be significantly drier because the capillary forces aren't sufficient to wick the water that far.  So, on average, a sponge on end will have significantly lower water content than a sponge lying flat.  Decrease the grain size and the saturations overall increase, the saturated zone at the bottom will be thicker, and the saturations will fall off with distance from the bottom of the pot more slowly.
 

Anthony

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 04:39 AM »
You know Bonsai is just a very simple hobby, but it requires a great deal of personal attention/effort. If I try to grow a tree or shrub, I first check the top temperature and lowest temperature that the tree can handle.

For example, maples can grow easily down here, under the shade of a tree, from 10 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. and a refrigerator for two months.Mostly because we have enough humidity to not damage the leaves, and our highest temperature is below 95 deg.F. during the day for maybe an hour and then the temperature drops back to 75 deg.F after 6 p.m. or later as summer comes on.

Can a Japanese Black Pine really handle temperatures over 95 deg.F ?
There was a gentleman on this list from Germany, who in the on-line chat forum, reminded me that black pines can grow down to the seashore in Japan. High humidity and possibly windy, temperature ?
I suspect that black pines most probably started off in South China, on the plains and were taken to Japan as many of their other plants were.

Watering by the use of hose is not quite the same as by watering can, which is how I read it was done before in China and Japan, and I have continued that practice.
3 passes are required, top, middle and bottom.
Dry soils and the water most likely passes around the internal sides of the pot and out. Wait 10 minutes and pass again, and the water soaks in, 10 minutes again and by the final pass the water saturates the pot.

Additionally, if you make a pass with water in the evening, around 4.30 to 5.00 p.m, enough time for the leaves to be cooled by evaporation and to dry off before 6.00 p.m. you get the soils staying moist for 2 passes in the morning. That will hold even the smallest pot moist until evening, on my side.

My friend has a long term project of a serissa, being grown for the roots, in a plastic umbrella stand, using very coarse closer to 1/4 inch crushed, porous red earthenware brick, plus compost, in full sun.
No problems sunwise.

So I wonder was this truly a soil problem or a watering problem?
Anthony
 

nathanbs

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 09:27 AM »
Pore saturation is a function of depth and grain size. It's a balance between gravitational and capillary forces.  Saturations are lowest near the soil surface and will increase with depth toward the bottom of the pot.  The easiest way for me to visualize what's going on is to consider a sponge saturated with water.  If you lay the sponge down flat a bunch of water will drain away (that's the gravitational water), but there will be a narrow zone on the bottom that is close to 100% saturated while the top of the sponge has less water.  If you stand the sponge on its end, the saturated zone will have the same height,  but a lot less of the sponge will have those high saturations.  The top of the sponge will be significantly drier because the capillary forces aren't sufficient to wick the water that far.  So, on average, a sponge on end will have significantly lower water content than a sponge lying flat.  Decrease the grain size and the saturations overall increase, the saturated zone at the bottom will be thicker, and the saturations will fall off with distance from the bottom of the pot more slowly.
Great analogy. Now what does placing that same sponge in direct sunlight on a very hot dry day do?
 

nathanbs

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 09:33 AM »
You know Bonsai is just a very simple hobby, but it requires a great deal of personal attention/effort. If I try to grow a tree or shrub, I first check the top temperature and lowest temperature that the tree can handle.

For example, maples can grow easily down here, under the shade of a tree, from 10 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. and a refrigerator for two months.Mostly because we have enough humidity to not damage the leaves, and our highest temperature is below 95 deg.F. during the day for maybe an hour and then the temperature drops back to 75 deg.F after 6 p.m. or later as summer comes on.

Can a Japanese Black Pine really handle temperatures over 95 deg.F ?
There was a gentleman on this list from Germany, who in the on-line chat forum, reminded me that black pines can grow down to the seashore in Japan. High humidity and possibly windy, temperature ?
I suspect that black pines most probably started off in South China, on the plains and were taken to Japan as many of their other plants were.

Watering by the use of hose is not quite the same as by watering can, which is how I read it was done before in China and Japan, and I have continued that practice.
3 passes are required, top, middle and bottom.
Dry soils and the water most likely passes around the internal sides of the pot and out. Wait 10 minutes and pass again, and the water soaks in, 10 minutes again and by the final pass the water saturates the pot.

Additionally, if you make a pass with water in the evening, around 4.30 to 5.00 p.m, enough time for the leaves to be cooled by evaporation and to dry off before 6.00 p.m. you get the soils staying moist for 2 passes in the morning. That will hold even the smallest pot moist until evening, on my side.

My friend has a long term project of a serissa, being grown for the roots, in a plastic umbrella stand, using very coarse closer to 1/4 inch crushed, porous red earthenware brick, plus compost, in full sun.
No problems sunwise.

So I wonder was this truly a soil problem or a watering problem?
Anthony

Black pines can handle the temps no problem normally. Just about every bonsai person here in southern California has JBP. The soil mix I use get saturated very easily and quickly no need for three passes. I have already stated several times that my jbp suffer from too much water Again I have other species of trees in the same course mix without issue with the same watering technique.
 

John Kirby

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 11:50 AM »
Marky Scott, Nice example with the sponge- I will steal that one for the future, but will attribute the analogy.

Anthony, I would love to see any data that suggests Pinus thunbergii started out in South China and was carried north to Japan and Korea as a cultural exchange. Anecdotally the limited genome data suggest otherwise. Further, all of the published data that I have been able to find suggest that JBP had a fairly limited native distribution on several Japanese Islands south of Hokkaido and on the South Korean Islands and Mainland (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=610&taxon_id=200005368).

In seeing where JBP come from, they do seem to like warm and humid climates, in areas like Southern California they deal with pollution and salt quite well, they just need to watered and managed appropriately. Sphagnum ("mulch" so to speak)  on the soil surface can cure a number of water vapor loss ills.




 

Tona

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2012, 09:11 PM »
Hey Nathan,
Ironically Ryan Nichols talked about root temperature at the meeting that you missed on Wednesday. He lives in Riverside where the temperatures routinely stay over 100 degrees in the summer. I have the same problem in Santa Clarita. Although he didn't address the particle size issue, he did recommend a meat thermometer  and wrapping aluminum foil around the pots to reflect heat. I believe he said that in 100 degree temperatures in full sun his thermometer reads about 85 degrees. He also talked about mulching and using sphagnum moss to keep the surface temperatures down. Ryan Nichols would be a good person to call and ask since this is what he went to school for and is his area of expertise. See ya Sunday.
Tona (Steve)
 

nathanbs

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2012, 10:03 PM »
Thanks for the tip Steve. Super excited that you decided to go to class on Sunday. Is Jason going?
 

Tona

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Re: How would you like your roots cooked?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 11:21 PM »
As far as I know.