Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => General Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: bonsaiTom on September 05, 2011, 10:00 AM

Title: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: bonsaiTom on September 05, 2011, 10:00 AM
Warm WET season in the Northeast has me thinking fungicide. Bought some Daconil - already have Neem oil.
Specifically concerning the former, as I have no experience, are there preferred seasons for its use? Recommended frequency? Are there any different concerns regarding Ponderosa vs JBP or JWP? Trident or Japanese maples? Any juniper varieties?

Other brand suggestions?  I know that reading the labels is important - but I'm looking for bonsai focused experience from first hand users of this stuff. I worry about my little trees. That's why I'm here  ;D
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: John Kirby on September 05, 2011, 10:07 AM
I use it monthly in CT (and formerly in AR) on all species that you mention. I haven't had any difficulties with anything to date, many years, I use systemics for sucking and chewing insects (like Merit) and a systemic general purpose fungicide, but the Daconil really works on the pines. I have burned Japanese Maples with Daconil and Malathion, but the malathion was pretty hot (at the high end of the range). One note, I was late getting started this year as we sorted out things after the move, have been playing catchup all summer.

I also strong suggest that you include a sticker/spreader to ensure that exposure is long enough to work.
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: bonsaiTom on September 05, 2011, 10:23 AM
Thanks John - very helpful. Except that I'm not familiar with "sticker/spreader". ?   ???
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: coh on September 05, 2011, 10:33 AM
I've been meaning to ask about daconil for a while now, this post reminded me...I had purchased some from one of the big box stores (Lowes or Home Depot) earlier this year...the already mixed version in a spray bottle. The bottle nozzle has options for "stream" and "spray" but the spray option doesn't work...the daconil mixture seems almost too thick (or the nozzle is poorly designed).

Thinking it might just be the nozzle I bought another spray bottle and put some of the daconil in that...still wouldn't spray well, even after diluting with water. On the other hand, a bottle of copper fungicide sprays with no problem.

Any advice/thoughts/experience? It's tough for me to get good coverage with the daconil, is that just the way the stuff is?

Chris
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: John Kirby on September 05, 2011, 11:50 AM
COH, I don't buy premixed, too expensive, no idea why.

Tom, see http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052O4O8S/ref=asc_df_B0052O4O8S1693198?smid=A3EC8NZGOQP4RO&tag=dealtmp1-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395105&creativeASIN=B0052O4O8S (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052O4O8S/ref=asc_df_B0052O4O8S1693198?smid=A3EC8NZGOQP4RO&tag=dealtmp1-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395105&creativeASIN=B0052O4O8S)

We buy it by the gallon, use a few table spoons per 4.5 gallon sprayer tank (I use 2-3 to spray the whole menagerie). Not advocating using Amazon, any surfactant will work just fine.

John
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Chrisl on September 05, 2011, 11:55 AM
John, wouldn't adding a tbsp or two of dish soap in addition to Neem Oil also both act as a surfactants?  

Chris, I also bought the premixed spray bottle and totally agree with you; it doesn't work well.  I also tried a diff. spray bottle with no luck.  So I bought a concentrated bottle that I'm waiting to use after the spray is gone.  It'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference. 

I have that Ponderosa Pine that has dead scale from what I can tell, and a mild case of needlecast.  I was told to use 5-6 tbsp Neem Oil and 2 tbsp of dish soap/both per gal.  And then add the fungicide and insecticide to the solution at recommended doses.  Since I'm still trying to kill the spray bottles of the fungicide and insecticide, I'm using the Neem/Soap solution first, then the two sprays.  But adding all 4 elements to the spray seems very convenient...if it works.

Speaking of fungicides, I hear people spray their trees entering dormancy with a lime sulfur spray (some only do decid's and others do both decids and conifers it seems).  But no one talks about the dilution rate.  Anyone know this?
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: coh on September 05, 2011, 12:54 PM
I only bought the pre-mixed so I could test it, I'd also buy the concentrate if I was planning to use it regularly.

Maybe the difference is the sprayer, those small squeeze bottles don't have nearly the "oomph" you can get with a pressurized sprayer. I suppose the next test would be to put the pre-mixed daconil into a pressurized sprayer and see if that works.

Thanks for the thought...

Chris
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: John Kirby on September 05, 2011, 03:32 PM
Use the surfactant, dish soap can foam too much under pressure.
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Chrisl on September 05, 2011, 05:33 PM
Ah, I see.  Thanks John.  I used a hand sprayer this last time and besides not being great at dispensing the Daconil, both my hands got tired out lol  I have a pressure sprayer so I'll use this next time, though it's a pain to rinse and clean.

Chris, as noted above, those hand spray bottles will really wipe your hands out, esp. if spraying more than one tree.  The pressurized sprayer is very effective; you just have to regularly pump it back up as the pressure goes down dispensing the fluid.

Any ideas on the lime sulfur dilution guys as a winter preventative treatment??
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: gibmeister on September 05, 2011, 06:03 PM
John,

I have Ortho Garden Disease Control (formerly Daconil) and I have Ortho Systemic Insect Killer (formerly Isotox). Are these the items you are recommending to use on a monthly basis as a preventitive procedure? Would this be a good thing to start this year still?  Thanks for any help on this.

Gib
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: coh on September 05, 2011, 06:15 PM
The site "bonsai4me" gives some dilutions for lime sulfur...recommending between 1:25 to 1:50 (mixed with water) for use as a fungicide (spray). However, I've never used it so I can't speak from experience.
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: bonsaiTom on September 05, 2011, 08:00 PM
Hey guys,

Thanks so much. This discussion has been very helpful. Glad I started the thread.

Back to the Daconil I just got in a spray bottle - but have not yet used. Cost was just $4.84 (tax incl.) for a 36 oz. bottle at Lowe's. Now we'll see how well the sprayer works.

My main concern is for pines at the moment.
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: coh on September 05, 2011, 10:34 PM
Please let us know if the sprayer works...it's hard for me to believe that they can keep selling something that performs so poorly. I saw some reviews either on amazon or Lowes web site and a lot of people were complaining about the same thing, so it's been an ongoing problem. Unfortunately I didn't see that until after I bought it...
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: John Kirby on September 06, 2011, 02:50 AM
Gib,
The daconil is fine monthly, if you wish you can alternate with others like copper based fungicide and/or Captan. As with all of these agents, developing a rotation program can be used to prevent resistance and maintain effectiveness. John
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Owen Reich on September 06, 2011, 06:05 AM
Vegetable oil is a good sticker / spreader that i've always used in the wholesale nursery world.  It's usually about $1-2 for a liter.    As for fungicides, Daconil is a good general spray.  I would reccomend Bayer 3-in-1 Advanced for woody plants if spraying for preventative monthly spray.  The won't sell it in concentrate as I have tried to contact them about it.  Had to do some math and actually used my chemistry book from college : ).  It has Imidacloprid, Taufluvinate, and Tebuconazole.  Here's a link to the breakdown:  http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/d7/d797ccc7-f8f2-4c34-a48e-547a389584be.pdf (http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/d7/d797ccc7-f8f2-4c34-a48e-547a389584be.pdf)
I used it for my bonsai once, then bought the chemicals in concentrate form for use at the nursery as we use 300+ gallons at a time.  It works well.  My only concern is the lack of another miticide as there are no miticides to my knowledge that kill multiple enstars (life stages).  Mites multiply really fast and if you only kill the adults (especially with all the spider mite species), they will hatch or mature and reinfest.  I believe I used Floramite the following week.  I sprayed it mostly from late Spring to early Fall when mite activity was peaking for different species.  Blasting your trees with a hose never hurts as long as you're careful. 

Lime sulphur is used quite a bit in the bonsai nurseries in Japan as well as the commercial plant world in America.  It is very popular for protection of plants in the Rosacae family (Apple, Hawthorne, etc) as a dormant spray as well as for fire blight prevention.  We don't spray conifers here or anything for that matter but many shimpaku we purchase in winter have a white residue (which is ugly) and many quince as well.  I've only used it on apples and pears so can't comment on application or rates and someone else already posted on that point. 

The only other thing I would add is don't lean too heavily on one chemical for control (possible resistance issues) and be sure to look into a borer spray like Permethrin for late winter to late spring protection.  With Asian Long-horned beetle, ambrosia beetle, pine bark borer, and now a new one called Camphor Shot Borer, stressed bonsai or corked barked trees are like candy for them.  The really annoying thing is the temperature spikes and drops over the last five years I witnessed in Nashville caused the borers to become active earlier or later than usual.  Not trying to scare everyone ; ).  Subscribing to your local Agricultural Extension's blog or newsletter is generally a good idea as many post borer activity levels and other pests and diseases that haunt your area.
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: John Kirby on September 06, 2011, 07:13 AM
Own,
We have tried Kontos (systemic, well maybe) as an early season starter and then use Avid, Forbid and Bifenthrin. Avid and Forbid are restricted, but with single use per year can really restrict the population. Several claim to affect all life stages, but like you have pointed out, none truly seem to be truly spanning.  Vegetable oil can work, you need to really emulsify it to prevent all of the oil solubles from being restricted to hydrophobic globlules.

John
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Chrisl on September 06, 2011, 12:08 PM
Thanks Chris for those dilution rates!

I didn't know also I should be rotating my fungicides.  Just been using Daconil.  I'm ordering some copper fungicide today.

Oh, I've been using Ortho Max flower, tree and vegetable  insecticide.  Is the bayer 3 in 1 better, or is this Ortho Max good to cover the borers as they all seem to do scale? 
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: John Kirby on September 06, 2011, 05:00 PM
Look, if you don't see a problem and you don't live in a wicked environment for fungus, then just pay attention and treat. In a commercial setting lots of pretreatment just because of the numbers, density and frequency of dealing with each individual tree. I wouldn't worry about it, spray with lime sulphur before you put them for bed in the winter, once more later in the winter and deal with any problems that might arise.
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Chrisl on September 06, 2011, 08:32 PM
It's been a very wet summer and fall so far here in Chicago.  So far this year I've had powdery mildew, scale and needlecast, though one is a on a plant I just bought recently.  Any reason that we don't use lime sulfur spray year round?   We've discussed all these other treatments, so I'm just trying to 'get the  big picture'
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Owen Reich on September 07, 2011, 06:01 AM
Like sulphur can be phyotoxic (fry the leaves) especially on deciduous trees.  Kontos is a systemic and reliable by either foliar spray or soil drench.  I prefer a drench and also like Imidacloprid.  Avid is a great miticide especially for hinoki and arborvitae.  The real trick is to scout for potential issues before they hurt your bonsai.  My ABS Journal on Mizu Goke (chopped sphagnum moss) covers monitoring for root fungus issues a little.  Borers are hard, if not impossible to scout for as it doesn't take long for one to lay an egg and fly off.  Traps are a great way to let you know they are already in the area ; ) hence the preventative trunk spray.  Arbitrary applications of chemicals to a small bonsai collection is wasteful and a hassle.  Commercial production of a monoculture of anything is a numbers game and preventative spraying is just protection of an investment.  I should be more clear on that in the future.  My bonsai collection was in the middle of thousands of other plants where i used to work so I sprayed them regularly because it took very little time.  Bayer 3-in-1 works well.  I used it because I prefer Imidacloprid for the systemic action and diversity of pests that die when they suck or chew on my bonsai. 

On a final note, it may be a good idea to look into 100% inorganic bonsai mix for your conifers if not already in use to avoid water-logged soil.  I have seen people use styrofoam fish crate lids (cut in half with a hole for the trunk) to keep their tree dry during the rainy season and then reuse for winter insulation before.  Not something I'd do for a whole collection, but perhaps for a temperamental or recovering tree or two.   
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: Chrisl on September 07, 2011, 10:31 AM
Thanks Owen for explaining that.  I knew there had to be a catch on the lime sulfur spray ;)  And that's a good idea to protect from exc. rains....esp. for my Ponderosa Pine.  And I have the perfect styrofoam lid in mind, just glad I didn't throw it away last week when I was supposed too lol
Title: Re: fungicide use as a preventative
Post by: coh on September 18, 2011, 11:13 AM
Follow-up regarding the pre-mixed daconil/sprayer problem, for anyone interested. I picked up a small pressure sprayer and filled it with the pre-mixed daconil that wouldn't spray well in the original sprayer. It still didn't work very well. There's something about that pre-mixed stuff, it just seems way too thick to use effectively.

I then picked up some of the daconil concentrate and mixed my own...filled the pressure sprayer and no problem, worked like a dream.

So bottom line...save yourself some headaches and just get the concentrate! Avoid the crap that comes pre-mixed at Lowes and Home Depot.

Chris