Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => General Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: King Kong on August 05, 2009, 06:09 AM

Title: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 05, 2009, 06:09 AM
I have been looking over my bible of early bonsai, my first book Minature Trees and Landscapes by Yoshimura and Halford trying to figure out where bonsai is going as far as styles. Lord, this forums page goes forever. I have been seeing trees in Indonesia, Europe and even here have seem to slant to heavy trunked material that have been cut off with superficial tops grown on. This material could have been collected from the wilds, field grown, grown in escape pots or collected in your mother in laws back yard.
Have we lost something here? Is horticulture skills giving way to the more impressive looking hulk chops? This is what I would like to explore. Hopfully, I can influence a bonsai novice in seeing the methods I was shown as a beginner. So I will be showing pictures of scratch grown trees and having a good time with questions and I hope there will be some.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 05, 2009, 08:04 AM
Now here is the kicker. If I am going to work, so are too. Each commentary, must include a picture of your tree no matter the age or size. Just one tree and we will go slow but this will be your responsibility. If you don't have any start up bonsai material then go shopping and the younger, the smaller the better. Now when have you heard that for a bonsai class? You will not need a back hoe, a chain saw, to tresspass on property or a donkey to haul yamadori off mountain sides. Nice and simple like the old days.....

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 05, 2009, 12:46 PM
 juniper procumbens $1.50 in a one gallon pot ages ago. Wired once and off to clip and grow it went.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 06, 2009, 05:56 PM
Sorry for the delay. The vet had to pull 11 teeth out of my dear dog's jaw so been doing a little tlc. I like to grow at least 20 or more of each species that is targeted to  being a bonsai. They all do not turn out to be winners. Most do not. This tree is easy to work with and was lucky to select it from day one. As time passes it holds up well and improves with age.
The plant species is Jabatacoba.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 06, 2009, 08:40 PM
Hello Gary
 This is a Japanese Black pine 2yrs old bought from Riverbend Gardens for $7.95 its 10 inches high and I would like to learn

to make it into an informal upright so sensi teach me I have a lot of free time now. I live in michigan but will be moving to

centeral Flordia near Daytona.

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 06, 2009, 09:02 PM
I have a little experience with jbp. I have been trying hard to grow them and I will be happy to show you John what I have and found about this beautiful plant. Welcome to Florida!

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 06, 2009, 11:24 PM
Gary,
 Are you from Flordia and if you are what club do you belong to?

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 09, 2009, 07:43 PM
I am not a club type person. Sitting around card tables whining about politics is enough to make me want to plunge a sword in my gut. Otherwise they are a blast. The next thing to do is start to draw. Not a pistol but with a pencil, sketch. In Miami we carry a gun and a pencil.  Think ahead to the goal design look and draw it. Sketch it many times and show it to other people to see if it looks ok.
So John draw a picture of what you want that pine to look like and we will go from there if you would. Now if you want it to look like this....we are in deep $&**.

KK
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 10, 2009, 09:58 AM
I had a feeling like this once before. I was in the middle of the Gulf Stream participating in a regatta. Well the wind stopped, slack calm. The only locomotion I could generate was moving the rudder back and forth. Paddling a 28 foot sailboat with a piece of lumber the size of a checker board. 
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: meushi on August 10, 2009, 01:37 PM
Gary,

I am interested with the direction you're trying to give to this thread. I will take a picture or two as soon as the camera batteries are charged. Any preference on the stock species? I have some very young palmatums, some very long inpeditum rhodos and a very young procumbens.

Michael
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 10, 2009, 04:01 PM
 Is that air tuggen in me sails? Which tree... are you kidding? It is a good thing you are in Germany or I would ask you to marry me.  But I would rather be becalmed any day then sitting on my butt talking about politics.   

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 10, 2009, 05:03 PM
Well I will attempt to draw what I want my tree to look like but I failed art 101 in school.

John  ;D
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 10, 2009, 06:03 PM
I see on the news that Taiwan was belted with 80 inches of rain. The site of the ASPAC. Sent Kevin Shen an e-mail to see how bad they got flooded. Best wishes for the Taiwan area!

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 10, 2009, 09:33 PM
Min Hsuan Lo, The chief of operations says some trees were damaged by typhoon but show will go on in Taiwan.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 10, 2009, 11:16 PM
Thats great to hear thats one outstanding show. Ok this is my first attempt at my trees future.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 11, 2009, 05:12 AM
Failed art? You must be a late bloomer John. lol's Very nice lines. Now the only way I can think of to get your pine to this point would be a technique shown best in Leong's video I saw the other day.
Hunt this one down... Bonsai South then Main Navigation then Videos then Kotobuki Black Pine

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 11, 2009, 11:25 AM
It's a nice video but I would have to wait 20 years just to cut down my pine. If I start wiring and pruning now in 20 years
I might have a nice tree with out the major cutting.  ;D

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: MatsuBonsai on August 11, 2009, 11:28 AM
Here's a direct link, for those interested.

http://bonsaisouth.com.au/cms3/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=75 (http://bonsaisouth.com.au/cms3/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=75)

Good call, Gary.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 11, 2009, 12:37 PM
It's a nice video but I would have to wait 20 years just to cut down my pine. If I start wiring and pruning now in 20 years
I might have a nice tree with out the major cutting.  ;D

John

 Here is where there is a fork in the road John. Do I want to turn left and start forming and wiring for instant satisfaction or do I take a right and leave the plant alone and just grow it for the ultimate nebari and trunk size to be bonsai'ed  at a much later date?Quandary of epic proportions?
As long as you realize that to grow a plant to look like your drawing you will need to turn right you have won half the battle. Turning
left is ok as long as you realize the trunk will never be the size as seen in your drawing.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 11, 2009, 12:39 PM
Here's a direct link, for those interested.

http://bonsaisouth.com.au/cms3/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=75 (http://bonsaisouth.com.au/cms3/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=75)

Good call, Gary.

 Thanks for the help J.



--gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 11, 2009, 02:16 PM
I do realize that I will be looking at a pine tree grow fo quite a long time there is no real shortcut to creating a bonsai thats a beginners idea so for the time being I will feed, water and watch my little pine grow into something worth styling. However asking questions is still the best way to learn.  ;D

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 11, 2009, 03:01 PM
Good point John. This is why it is good to grow 4 or 5 trees. Some you can wire and set out and some you can plant in the ground and some wire to a finish look overnight. Seeing that you will not have a problem from your drawing ability, lets wire one up from scratch to enter a show next week, lol's. Do you have any wire John? I will do one of mine as well, jbp that is so when you are ready sound the horn. 8)

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 11, 2009, 07:19 PM
 Well, went to the art store and bought a new set of rapidiograph technical pens today. I need to sit down and draw my entry for the logo contest, the Indonesian thing in Taiwan. Is Australia considered to be in Indonesia? I think so. I was thinking about drawing a picture of King Kong with a bonsai in one hand and cold beer in the other standing on top of down under .
Thai tv commercial below.
__gary  
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: loopeozzie on August 12, 2009, 08:07 AM
ummm no Australia is not concidered to be in Indonesia check out a world map you will notice water seperates both
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 12, 2009, 08:41 AM
Thanks for that mate but I actually mis-spoke. The show is ASPAC so Asia Pacific Bonsai and Suiseki Convention & Exhibition. The one and only acronym that I can think of that does not have a B for bonsai included.
Is down under considered part of Asia Pacific?

Has that wire going John?

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 12, 2009, 10:50 AM
Seems like my wireing will take a little longer at this time I'm getting rid of almost everything getting ready for my move to FLA. so when I'm ready Ill be back.

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 12, 2009, 12:11 PM
Good luck with your move and drink lots of liquids. I just moved my daughter in Mississippi and it darn near killed me but it was 105 degrees. It is cooler in Florida with high humidity you sweat all day so the evaporation feels great. I will go ahead without you with a jbp so our huge fan base doesn't riot.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 12, 2009, 06:36 PM
Kong's Kitchen: For all you stir fry cooks out there, try this oil next time....Safflower oil high heat grade. If you do bonsai, you got to stir fry your food.....you will love it!

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 13, 2009, 10:38 AM
Next victim, a 4-5 year old jbp in start up stage. This one will get the wire job of its life so its show ready in two weeks!

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: noissee on August 13, 2009, 11:02 AM
John, where will you be moving to in Fl?
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 13, 2009, 02:19 PM
New smyrna area for now.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 13, 2009, 02:22 PM
Gary thats one nice tree have you been growing it for the last couple of years or did you just get it?

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 13, 2009, 02:39 PM
I have had that pine for 4 years from a 10 inch seedling. But, my growing skills have not been great in the past with jbp. Just now getting my soil culture figured out. I am using allot of expanded (sponge rock ) perlite to dry them out at night. Truly a unique plant for culture requirements. You will be able to get some bigger plants once you settle down in Fl. There are people on this site that will ship as well.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 13, 2009, 07:31 PM
Tonight I put on raffia which was soaked in water with two drops of superthrive all day. Going to be bending so don't want to take any chances. I like wrapping with wet raffia nice and tight and letting it dry overnight, on the bonsai that is. Seems to work well.
Raffia comes from the Raphia palm in Madagascar. So good trivia to know hey? Any palm readers out there? lol's  get it?

__gary  
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaikc on August 13, 2009, 09:49 PM
Gary,
Good thread! I look forward to seeing where you take it.

Chris
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 14, 2009, 07:49 AM
There is no agenda here Chris, no long term goals, no well planned charted course, just day to day bonsai stuff. No advertisements, no off the wall matters of fact, just primitive down to earth every day bonsai. No expected value of the product, no brown nosing or sucking up, just your hands, some wire, a victim, an idea and hopfully a bonsai. Now praise? That is always welcome! Thanks Chris and have a good day.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 14, 2009, 10:18 AM
When I wire, the purpose is to hold branches so I do not go by the books at times. Iam not a dentist, I am a gardner.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: bonsaidad on August 14, 2009, 10:40 AM
Nice start  ;D

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 14, 2009, 04:53 PM
There is no agenda here Chris, no long term goals, no well planned charted course, just day to day bonsai stuff. No advertisements, no off the wall matters of fact, just primitive down to earth every day bonsai. No expected value of the product, no brown nosing or sucking up, just your hands, some wire, a victim, an idea and hopfully a bonsai. Now praise? That is always welcome! Thanks Chris and have a good day.

__gary

Since I am working so hard I get a little free rope right? I left out one. No 'Mother Hen' moderators to contend with. Congrats Bonsai Study, this is the longest stint I ever had without some sort of editing or ban threat as of late.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: Jerry Norbury on August 17, 2009, 04:36 AM
Gary

Would that trunk withstand an even greater bend?

I think you could push it a lot further and end with a nicer tree...

Jerry.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: joe cervantes on August 18, 2009, 12:06 AM
Heres my Yaupon Holly from nursery stock I got in June. First pic is after I took off alot off branches. The next pics are after I defoiliated and wired.I left some of the very new growth on just to monitor its growth as time goes by. This is my first time doing this. This will be and has been a learning experience for me. Any comments /suggestions are always welcome. Thanks, Joe
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: noissee on August 18, 2009, 11:45 AM
It doesn't look like your wire is doing much bending. I know this species can be brittle though, so I understand. My point is, that wiring a big branch that won't bend is a waste of wire. You should figure out which big branches are part of your design, and cut the rest off. Feed heavily, and wire the new growth while it is still fresh.
This species is also readily available and cheap, so I would suggest using a rough 6:1 ratio. 6 being trunk height, and 1 being trunk width. I think you will find that your tree will start to look better when it comes into better proportions. You can always go out and get another yaupon holly that can be styled into something taller.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: John Kirby on August 18, 2009, 02:57 PM
Gary,
OK, I want to get back to the little pine. Gary, why do you think the gentle curve that you have placed in the trunk of this little tree will ever result in a good bonsai? As a matter of discussion, I don't really understand why you put raffia on the tree at all, the bend is gentle enough that good wire would have protected it just fine.

I am not trying to dust up a storm, just trying to see the logic?

John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: greerhw on August 18, 2009, 05:46 PM
Just curious, but what are your long term plans for this tree, right now I can't see where you're going.

Keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: joe cervantes on August 18, 2009, 11:46 PM
Thanks for the replies Noissee and Pine Queen. I will try to sketch the tree. I have the Holly in 100% Turface. I will be getting some fertilizer soon. I was told that this plant should be fertilized from Sring - Fall. The wiring I did was my first. The larger middle branch did bend quite easily,as did the others that I wired. Even after I wired it , I still could see different possibilities with it. I had an Oak style in mind almost like a broom style. I figured I would wait until the leaves have come back to see what  kind of growth I have and maybe how to proceed. I think I wil get another Holly this week.
   Pine Queen, I dont understand your virt. Can you explain it to me please? Thanks, Joe
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 22, 2009, 09:11 PM
Gary,
OK, I want to get back to the little pine. Gary, why do you think the gentle curve that you have placed in the trunk of this little tree will ever result in a good bonsai? As a matter of discussion, I don't really understand why you put raffia on the tree at all, the bend is gentle enough that good wire would have protected it just fine.

I am not trying to dust up a storm, just trying to see the logic?

John

I am going to put my calipers on that wee little trunk so you can show me with one of your pines John how easy they are to bend. It took everything I had just about to bend that thing. I have not wired too many pines but I was surprised how tough that little bugger was. For the 5 minutes it took to put on raffia it was worth it in the moment of truth.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: John Kirby on August 22, 2009, 09:22 PM
Gary, the problem is you waited too long to put radical bends in it without the heavy equipment. I'll bend some next weekend when I am home and post them. John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 23, 2009, 07:42 AM
Sharp bends, smooth bends and such. I have found looking back over the years that wire induced mechanical vein popping bends tend to me smooth. I am not in to tying bolin knots with junipers. Sharp angular quick turns tend to arrive from chops and clips. A totally different look. What I prefer would be to grow the little pine in the field until I get a 4 inch caliper trunk and chop the pine off  for the first move. But that aint an option in S Florida. You got to know when to wire em and know when to grow em. And you got to know not to plant them in the ground.....here. Now you people up North have no excuses.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 23, 2009, 09:07 AM
I need a 7/8 inch trunk demonstration pine bend. Your only allowed to use your hands and thick wire, no helpers. solomente es muy bueno por favor. I got one copper pole ground and one mega aluminium and I still had to guy wire it down.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 23, 2009, 09:31 AM
Just curious, but what are your long term plans for this tree, right now I can't see where you're going.

Keep it green,
Harry
[/quot

I am glad you brought this up. There is not a meal that I sit down to that I don't remember what it was like to starve for 6 days. Now I appreciate food to a degree that I would not be able to explain unless someone else went through the same ordeal.

__gary 
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: John Kirby on August 23, 2009, 12:28 PM
Hmm, so you want me to make the same mistake that you did? I'll bend some, cheers. John
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 23, 2009, 01:12 PM
It worked fine so far (5 days). Is this a seasonal thing for wiring? I know one thing, the sap is flowing and I allready see some new buds with added day light on the subject. Or maybe I scarred it to life. It's nice to at least have a plan rather than just another plant.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: greerhw on August 23, 2009, 02:58 PM
Just curious, but what are your long term plans for this tree, right now I can't see where you're going.

Keep it green,
Harry
[/quot

I am glad you brought this up. There is not a meal that I sit down to that I don't remember what it was like to starve for 6 days. Now I appreciate food to a degree that I would not be able to explain unless someone else went through the same ordeal.

__gary 

Same old kong, I asked a serious question and all I get is, don't talk to me unless you've walked a mile in my moccasins. You will glad to know that you need not to worry about responding to my requests in the future, I will let others who have earned your respect question you.

Harry
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 23, 2009, 03:29 PM
The point is Harry to me a real experience requires starting from the roots up in any endeavor. It is just a silly question. Do you think Leonardo Da vinci new the Mona Lisa was going to be famous at the first sitting?  To tell you the truth I have no idea where I am going with that pine but it's a start.

__gary
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: King Kong on August 23, 2009, 06:54 PM
Now I mentioned before that I thought it was a good idea to sketch out your project first. I think this is a good idea. Here is the trick that will get you out of a jam. When an interested party comes by and looks at your work and wonders what the heck you are doing a new plan steps forward. There is a failure to communicate. The trick is called artistic license. This supercedes all other doctrines. What ever the artist decides to portray, ignoring the bonsai rules, changing established fact is now OK because you are the artist and it takes an artist to understand this language. So asking an artist what he is doing or his painting looks like a child did it, will not get you invited to the next cocktail party.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: BSG Moderator on August 23, 2009, 10:42 PM
Everyone,
Please remember that we strive for bonsai study in a spirit of camaraderie. Debate is excellent. Let's not let this degenerate to something else. No disparagements, either stated or implied, will be allowed.

bsg Moderator
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: greerhw on August 24, 2009, 02:17 PM
Hey moderator dude or dudess, I ask a question and recieved an off the wall non related response, don't blame me. I can be quiet in Sunday School.

keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: T-Town Bonsai on August 24, 2009, 02:24 PM
Harry,
You know he is just here to bait people, you won't see me respond to anything past this.
Title: Re: bonsai experience
Post by: Bonsai Study Group Admin on August 24, 2009, 02:35 PM
Since this thread has strayed off topic and into a realm that we wish to avoid it has been locked.

The BSG Moderator posted an address to everyone, posters and readers alike.  If someone wishes to address one of the moderator comments it might prove best to address those concerns privately via PM.

We appreciate your understanding.


Thank you,
The Bonsai Study Group team