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Author Topic: Wintering Princess Persimmon in zone 6b  (Read 8438 times)
Owen Reich
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2012, 11:35 PM »

I think for thickening trunks growing in the ground is nice.  Princess persimmons don't fatten quickly at all.  I often did not have ground available so grew in oversized containers with super-fast drainage (mainly a lot of crushed granite).  I don't think organic fertilizers clog up the media in a container.   I'd tell you the name of the product we use here but it's all in kanji  Cry.  We apply cakes about 10-14 days before the ideal window for that species.  That's about how long it takes for the cakes to start releasing nutrients.  They stay on the bonsai for about 2 months, but actual benefits of the cakes decrease rapidly after a month and a half.  More watering and high heat (summer) causes faster degradation.  Not sure how long to leave on in the summer. 

I like to use inorganics on rough stock as there are often large cuts to heal and I've decreased the number of leaves and branches.  I often give newly collected evergreens a half-strength drench of Miracle-Grow about a week after collection.  It's a good way to see if the tree's roots are working well and the ones that green up quickly almost always survive.    Newly collected evergreens is about as far away from overwintering a persimmon so I'll stop typing now  Grin

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Owen Reich
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2012, 01:22 AM »

We do have a few batches of cutting here I stuck last year; satsuki and some 'Sekka'. Hinoki.  They are the ones in Episode 9 of bonsai art of japan on YouTube.  I've been fertilizing them with "used cakes".  I am a compulsive propagator of seeds and cuttings....  We will pot them into individual terra cotta pots this Spring.

Kouka-en is at the end of a long food chain of starters, growers, refiners, middle men, and finishers.  This nursery has grown large crops of a single species such as princess persimmon and quince in the past on the roof.
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Chrisl
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 10:51 AM »

I've learned a lot here Owen.  Adds to a few other suggestions.  So far, here is my take:
1.  Use org. cakes starting after the leaves have hardened off, starting 10-14 dys earlier to begin bio-breakdown.
2.  Good idea to supplement with liquid organics, I have the no smell fish emulsion version. I use this every other week.
3.  Use inorg. for rough stock with lg. cuts to heal. 
4.  Might be useful to use say, 1x/mos on dev. bonsai just to mix things up a bit??
5.  Leave cakes on during summer 6-8 wks. dep. on how much heat/sun.
6.  Start applying the cakes using only a few cakes, and add more overtime.

I'm sure there's more but that's what I can think of now.

And Owen, I too, even though I'm 50 (said embarrassingly Wink ), have 14 Shimpaku rooted cuttings, 2 Tridents in 4" pots, 5 Larch, 3 J. Quince, 4 JBP, and 15 JMs(for future forest planting) seedlings that I'm going to plant in the ground this spring.  I too am not sure if I have enough ground for all this (I stupidly bought a Canadian Hemlock that I put in the ground last yr.  The tree will not make a good bonsai ever.  Plus I have a Cryptomeria that's in the ground that I just don't like.  Both are getting ripped out this yr. for a better use of my space.  The Hemlock will make a nice tree in the backyard lol)  But I'm glad to hear if I run out of space, I can use my huge bl. nursery pots for any extras.  Or I have 2 Huge colanders (36" wide lol) My cheap available material is Turface and or grit (which I'm pretty sure is the same as crushed granite). 

I don't know exactly what I'm doing concerning initial and long term styling for in ground plants.  But figured it'd be fun just to try.   But I do plan on wiring them for trunk movement (and twist and compress the Shimpakus), plant over tiles, and let them be for as long as I'm living in Chicago.  If this economy ever picks up, hopefully we can make it back to N. Cali with an actual job.  There I'm sure the in ground plants would grow even faster...I'm just hoping on this one LOL

I too typed way too much Owen.  Wink)
Chris
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Judy
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2012, 10:53 AM »

  Newly collected evergreens is about as far away from overwintering a persimmon so I'll stop typing now  Grin

I don't think anyone minds the diversion, I appreciate the information that you are passing along.  Please keep it coming !
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Owen Reich
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2012, 06:34 PM »

I think that fertilization plan sounds well rounded.  I also like throwing in some liquified sea kelp from time to time.  Bonsai is an art full of "grey" areas as well as finely tuned horticultural practices.  It's difficult to help someone without seeing all the variables that come into play (light, water quality, the all important weather, etc).  Many bonsai have areas of growth at different stages of development too and this can also provide challenges.  I'll work on a fertilizer episode some time this year.  I am by no means the only "game" in town and many of my preferences come from living in Tennessee and Osaka.  America is a big country.  Mike Blanton, a good friend of mine, grows a lot of juniper bonsai.  His trees always look great, so I learned and use his program for junipers.  Contacting more seasoned local pro's and hobbiests in your area is a good idea.   
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Chrisl
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 10:40 AM »

Thanks Owen, good to hear that's a good 'game plan' on fertilization.  May I ask, what does the sea kelp add specifically?  Just curious.

I think doing a video on this topic would be very useful to most people.  Giving specific reasons why you use one product over another  would give people an informed choice to make.   Whether they take that advice is up to them.  But it'd clear up this topic that seems to come up quite a bit and is very much the 'grey' color of horticulture for bonsai like you said.
I've asked quite a few locals, and the Chicago Botanic Garden and I've gotten answers from Miracle Gro to entirely organics.  It'd be more helpful like what you did, found someone's garden in your area that has very healthy trees and emulate.  The whole controversy kinda reminds of of high end audio that I'm also into, where opinions very greatly about the same piece of gear from person to person.   Opinions abound, but there are so many variables that it's impossible to know till you hear it yourself, with your gear, in your own home.  lol


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tanlu
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2012, 01:11 PM »

Owen,

Thank you for answering my questions. This is a great thread. That one tip you gave about using half-strength chem fert on newly-collected evergreens was just what I needed to hear, since it's exactly what I did. I have a pitch pine that I'm estimating is over 60y/o. I collected it last year in August. It's got new white roots already coming out the bottom of it's small pot, which I'm assuming are signs of good health. I've trimmed off a few shoots, and I'm thinking about a good fertilizing regime. I would like to focus on refining it, but is now the right time? Should I use organics on it, chem, or both? And should I use generous amounts?

Actually, my main hesitation in trying organics (again), was because I tried them last year and compared the annual growth resultants with that of Julian Adams', a vendor that I purchased most of my material from in VA. He is the best source for quality non-grafted JWP and air-layered zuisho, along with many other species for pre-bonsai. I took note on the health and amount of annual growth of his JWP. He said he only uses chemical fertilizer, and for many reasons. It's easier for him to manage, it provides abundant growth, doesn't impede on drainage, and it's cheap. This may work best for him since he's just one man with hundreds of trees in various stages. And like you, I look at his results and decided to use his method as a model on trees in development.

However, I did notice the foliage health and amount of root growth (my pines are growing in colanders) on my pre-bonsai when I used organic cakes. Do you and others at Kouka-en use organic cakes even on rough stock? I too would love to see a video on this topic!
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John Kirby
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 05:59 PM »

The answer is, there are multiple ways of doing things and getting good results. We use both organics and inorganic fertilizers (like osmocote) on our trees. Since we use only inorganic mixes on trees in bonsai pots, I am using organics on everything. John Romano has a nice piece in International Bonsai this edition, he speaks very persuasively for carefully growing trees more slowly than most Americans like. I have stated here several times as well that it frequently takes longer to get unruly feld grown material to finished bonsai than container only reared material. But, we are often drawn to large coarse trunks that will take decades to make right. But, tat s just my opinion. John
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Chrisl
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 09:55 PM »

Well John, you know "it's all about the trunk"!  Wink

Would you elaborate on "that it frequently takes longer to get unruly field grown material to finished bonsai than container only reared material"?  I understand a better nebari from being in a pot a long time, and smaller leaves, but what other advantages could lead to a faster finished bonsai in a container grown tree?
 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 09:59 PM by Chrisl » Logged

Owen Reich
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 10:25 PM »

I'll let someone else go into what's in sea kelp.  I forgot  Undecided
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Chrisl
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 10:15 AM »

LOL Owen....happens to me all the time! Wink 
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John Kirby
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 12:21 PM »

Chrisi,
How about- no big ugly scars that may never heal. The branches are scaled appropriately. The trees have better transitions. The trees that we love from the wild are essentially pot reared (on rocks or really poor soil) and stunted.

I have lots of trees grown in the ground, the big trunks are nice, but are they the best trees? The problem we have (here and in Japan for commercial bonsai production) is that it is faster to get a big trunk in the ground than in a pot. No argument. However, many of the very best deciduous trees (big ones as well) have never lived anywhere but containers. It takes time, but the results are better. I think this is particularly true for Kifu and Shohin, which was John Romano's point.

I think I read the statement "80-100% of the value of a tree is the trunk", and I would say nebari. I would suggest that a well developed yet "not sumo", unscarred trunk is worth much more than the bulky, coarse material that we frequently see coming out of the ground. Of course, if I am vending big, coarse, trunks I will deny that I said this.
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Judy
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« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 01:10 PM »

Thank you John, for putting this into words.
 I too have a love of nice smooth trunks where the transitions look like they naturally grew this way. I find some field grown material is coarse and unattractive.  Where it can be carved to mimic a very old tree, it can become a beautiful thing. 

But I think that I see a dearth of beautiful feminine (bonsai) trees in our culture.  Every time I see photos of Japanese exhibits, I see that they have not forgotten this side of bonsai. It also seems that they are more daring with the singular features on any given tree.
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Chrisl
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 04:27 PM »

Darn, my first reply didn't make it.

So John, no scars, scale and transition...I'd never had thought of the last two.  And I should've thought of the lack of scarring.  And very interesting, I'd never thought of collected material as pot grown.  But it is true and makes sense.

If the best deciduous trees are pot grown, what about evergreens?  Is there a downturn to maturing evergreens in the ground and refining them in a pot other than a scar?

-Of course, if I am vending big, coarse, trunks I will deny that I said this.-

LOL!!  I'll back you up on that one John Wink


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John Kirby
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 09:03 PM »

Depends on conifers. There are older nursery reared trees that are quite nice. However, most of the truly good (great?) conifers are collected. Conifers tend to live longer, and interestingly, the nursery reared trees can never really recover from mistakes from rearing.
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