Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Fruiting and Flowering Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Jay on January 07, 2011, 03:25 PM

Title: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 07, 2011, 03:25 PM
With the New Year I thought I'd try and 'Do it Right', document a tree (or two) from beginning to ....

In late December I received Bill Valavanis' catalog of bare root seedlings and pre-bonsai. a few things caught my eye. The one that really stood out was the Japanese Flowering Quince.

You order from Bill with hope and respect for his knowledge and reputation, without actually seeing the tree(s) you will get. I have ordered Bareroot trees in the past and was not disappointed. I am sure I will not be this time either. The two trees I ordered were Pre-Bonsai from 3 gallon stock, 12 to 15 inches tall. They are listed as having 'heavy trunks with many branches'.

I am interested in hearing any thoughts on this species. Do you have one? How has it been for you. I plan on doing the best I can to document these trees from their arrival.  The brochure says that the bareroot trees will ship from early January through March.

Stay tuned for updates

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: shimsuki on January 07, 2011, 05:41 PM
We have 3 that we are experimenting with, got them last year right after flowering. Can't say much since I have only had them a year, but so far so good.

Good Luck, I look forward to some photos when they arrive!


Andrew

Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: John Kirby on January 07, 2011, 07:08 PM
I bought a number of them (touyo nishiki and other varieties) from Miniature Plant Kingdom a number of years ago, interesting trees. THe fall repotting has been a key. John
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: shimsuki on January 07, 2011, 09:29 PM
Why do you repot in the fall?

Thanks,
Andrew
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: John Kirby on January 07, 2011, 10:23 PM
A number of diseases and the ability of the tree to respond to stress, repot in fall, the roots stsrt to grow and the tree activates and flowers. Flowering quince majic!
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 08, 2011, 05:57 AM
John and Andrew, Thanks for the thoughts. I read about the need to transplant in the fall, I'll keep that in mind. I also read that they do not like to dry out. Suggestions to water twice a day during the growing season and once a day while dormant.
Have you found this to be true? Also, I plan on over wintering in my sunroom. I keep the sunroom in the low to mid 30's F. Do you think they will be happy?

I plan to take pictures all along the way with these two. Hopefully it will be useful to others and a photographic history for me.

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: John Kirby on January 08, 2011, 08:30 AM
Jay, sounds good, mine are in gallon pots now, they tend to be watered once aweek in tge late fall/winter, daily in the summer- but have been kept under 30% shade cloth in Arkansas (plastic in the winter) and never seem to be completely dormsnt. Good luck, Bill is a quality person, you will have fun with thequince- can be great color in the winter, mine bloom before, during and a little after the Ume.

John
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: meushi on January 08, 2011, 09:49 AM
My limited experience with Japanese flowering quinces:
-they must get a cold winter to flower profusely (I have a variety that flowers pretty much year round if left outside all winter)
-cuttings root very easily, as long as they are in leaf
-repot between late August and late October
-feed from April to end of October
-subject to root cankers, cut off, disinfect tools with bleach, dunk the healthy roots in diluted jin liquid to be on the safe side. If the canker has spread to the entire root system, cut to a healthy area and treat like a large cutting.
-very slow to thicken, remove suckers as they appear. With proper technique, you might be able to get a decent mame trunk in a decade.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 08, 2011, 12:26 PM
Thanks Meushi, I'll keep those things in mind. Not having seen the trees yet, It is not possible to say which way I'll go. But as John said, Bill is a class act, I'm not worried about value or development. These trees will be a nice addition to my collection.

As soon as they arrive, bare root, I'll take pictures and we all can comment.

J
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 08, 2011, 02:53 PM
My limited experience with Japanese flowering quinces:
-they must get a cold winter to flower profusely (I have a variety that flowers pretty much year round if left outside all winter)
-cuttings root very easily, as long as they are in leaf
-repot between late August and late October
-feed from April to end of October
-subject to root cankers, cut off, disinfect tools with bleach, dunk the healthy roots in diluted jin liquid to be on the safe side. If the canker has spread to the entire root system, cut to a healthy area and treat like a large cutting.
-very slow to thicken, remove suckers as they appear. With proper technique, you might be able to get a decent mame trunk in a decade.

That's been my experience with flowering quince as well over the past couple of years.  I bought a bunch of varieties from Brent of www.evergreengardenworks.com (http://www.evergreengardenworks.com) in the fall of 09 which have done really well.  They flowered like gangbusters this year, and even this winter a number of them have tons of flowers.

The only thing I'd say is that they do appear to be slow to thicken up.  Some of those larger flowering quince you see in Japan are decades old.  But, overall they are fun to play with and the flowers are always nice.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 08, 2011, 03:53 PM
Well, it sounds like these will be perfect. Flowers in the late winter/spring and possible all year. I'll remember that they will not thicken up too quickly and design accordingly.

Thanks everyone for their thoughts.... keep them coming!

J
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: JRob on January 10, 2011, 08:00 PM
Jay,

If you can find a copy International Bonsai 2006/No. 1 it was devoted to Flowering Quince. I picked up a copy shortly after Shim and I picked up our 3 Toyo Nishiki Quince. One of our club members was giving away copies of his older issues to anyone who wanted them. It has the following articles that may be of interest.

Developing Japanese Flowering Quince Miniature Bonsai, By Keizo Tachibaba, Craig W. Risser, Wm. M. Valavanis
How To Grow & Style Japanese Flowering Quince Bonsai, By Kageo Ono, Craig W. Risser
Maintaining Finished Bonsai - Part 7 Japanese Flowering Quince, By Kageo Ono, Craig W. Risser
Japanese Flowering Quince - Cultivars & Bonsai Training, By Brent Walston
The Seasonal Beauty Of Takeyyama Bonsai - Part 24 Quince, By Hiroshi Takeyama
Creating Clump Style Japanese Flowering Quince Bonsai, By Jiro Fukuda, Craig W. Risser
Dorie's Shohin Bonsai Tips - Japanese Flowering Quince, By Doris W. Froning.

Good Luck!

JRob

Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 11, 2011, 06:20 AM
JRob, Thank You!!  This is a classic case of being to close to the forest to see the trees (or possible just a bit lazy) I have a fairly good collection of International Bonsai. I checked and I do have that issue. Thank You again for pointing it out. The last issue 2010/4 is on flowering bonsai and has some info on Toyo Nishiki. I will be reading and studing 2006/1.

Do not know when my trees will ship but I'll be looking for then and as said before will try and do a good job of doing a photo journal.

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jerry Norbury on January 11, 2011, 07:19 AM
I have a big fat quince that I pulled out of my front garden border 5 years ago. I think it's probably as old as the house - 40 years old.

Here's a photo progression starts in February 2006.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jerry Norbury on January 11, 2011, 07:21 AM
April 2010 and May 2010.

The trunk base at the roots is 8-9 inches, maybe more.

The long vertical branch will get cut off this year after flowering.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 16, 2011, 07:36 AM
Jerry, I really like that garden Quince, I know mine will be twigs compared to it. Hopefully they will give a good show.

I checked on the shipping of mine and was told they will probably ship late Feb to early March. Probably a good thing with northern Vermont getting some colder weather now. We are not getting the classic minus 20's we usually see in January but still cold enough to not want bare root plants to sit in transit.

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 16, 2011, 01:44 PM
OK, it is a cold dark day here in northern Vermont. I've been out doing a little snow shoeing but at the moment I fall into the group of ' having too much time on my hands'. I've been thinking of what I've read about Quince, them being slow to thicken. As purely a  hypothetical question, what if when my two Quince arrive I look to plant them together. Giving the now one tree a thicker look. I know this works with some trees, not sure if it would with Quince. Again this is Hypothetical being I have no idea if the two trees will 'work' together. Possibly mother daughter style, twin trunk etc.....

Let me know you thoughts, do you feel they will over time grow together?


Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 17, 2011, 04:26 PM
Update- Received an email from Bill. He said he has packed my trees and will ship them tomorrow, they should arrive by the end of the week. I'll be posting pictures shortly.

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 21, 2011, 11:32 AM
The trees arrived Thursday. I am very pleased with them. Excellent value and nice possibilities. They are both approx 1 1/2 inches at the nebari and have main branches of approx 1/2 inch. They are both presently 18 inches tall more or less.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 21, 2011, 11:37 AM
As you can see they have green ribbons on various branches. These were placed there by Bill as his thoughts for the tree. I await the groups thoughts and will try and post other pictures that are either requested by the group or show the trees after they have been potted. They will probable be potted this Sunday. Note- thethird picture of this group shows the buds on one of the trees.

Enjoy
Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: William N. Valavanis on January 21, 2011, 01:08 PM
Jay,

Here are a couple of photos of one of my Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince.
Good luck with your new plants, and have fun while training them.(http://)

Bill
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 21, 2011, 02:08 PM
Hi Jay, nice acquisition.  Quince take pretty easily as cuttings, so before you do too much pruning, you might want to try cuttings.  Also, remember that it is recommended that quince be repotted in the fall, so I would probably refrain from doing any root work at this time.

Very nice quince Bill - just out of curiosity, are the red flowers from a grafted branch, or does your quince naturally have the white, pink and red flowers?
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 21, 2011, 02:27 PM
mcpesq817, thanks for the kind words. I will be doing the pruning with an eye to these two trees future. That said I will be trying to start some cuttings from what is going to be removed. My first thought was to bring these two trees to my study group meeting and discuss them. Bill's suggestions are looking pretty good and with his eye I may just go in that direction. However, looking at the temperatures for this weekend especially Sunday, I think I may decide to do these at home and not have them out in neg 10 to 20 F temps.

Either way, I will be posting pictures as i go. As for the three colors of flowers, that is one of the possibilities with Toyo Nishiki. I can not speak for Bills' but they do occur naturally as I understand it. I will post the colors that open from my buds.

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: William N. Valavanis on January 21, 2011, 03:44 PM
Glad you like my Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince bonsai. Over 30 years ago a young plant was obtained in Japan and I trained the plant into the present design. A couple of years ago the tree suddenly began to thicken up. When it did I looked carefully and the single red branch was grafted on! The graft was not apparent for over 25 years, but now, if one carefully looks from the right angle, there it is! One has to look very carefully to see it.

Also, by the way, I've been growing and training Japanese Flowering Quince for over 45 years here in America. I always transplant them in spring, NOT in autumn. In Japan, someone discovered (for them) that Japanese Flowering Quince are often transplanted in autumn when certain pests are not too active. I've never seen it here in America, and actually I don't know anyone who transplants Japanese Flowering Quince bonsai in autumn. It's cold here in upstate New York and I doubt, except with extreme measures, that this species would survive if transplanted in autumn. In spring, one can be very drastic with the roots and the plants just keep on growing.

Now, I've been doing this a long time and can tell you that you can almost do anything, anytime during the year if the correct techniques, aftercare and environment is provided. You can transplant nearly anything, anytime IF you know what you are doing.

My recommendation is to transplant Japanese Flowering Quince in spring AS the new buds are opening. Of course, you can do this a bit earlier or a bit later with good results too.

Bill
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: John Kirby on January 21, 2011, 10:47 PM
Bill, thanks for the comments. I have found that fall repotting is the mst relable, in my climate (former) in Arkansas where this species and chinese quince only rarely go completely dormant. I have only repotted a few hundred over the years, we never have had a lot of them, but have ad siginificantly better success in te falk than in te spring, close to 100% survival in the fall and less than 50% in the spring, but as you have pointed out, that is in our moderate climate with trees under platic.

Love your quince bonsai, the grafted branch is truly cool!

John
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: mcpesq817 on January 22, 2011, 12:54 PM
Hi Bill, thanks for the comments.  On the red flower branch being grafted, I asked because Brent Walston sells red toyo nishikis for grafting onto the pink/white plants.  I know that on the two toyo nishikis that I have that they have only flowered pink and white.  The tri-color plants, regardless of whether they are grafted or not, are really cool.

On the fall repotting, like John, I've had 100% success repotting in fall, but less success in the spring.  It could be a result of our moderate climate down here in the DC area, similar to John's experience.

Thanks again for sharing!  Flowering quince are a lot of fun, especially during the drab winter months.   ;D
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Steven on January 23, 2011, 08:11 AM
OK, you all are making my mouth water for 2 or 3 of them  ;D    But being a poor boy at the moment all I can do is dream LOL. Looking forward to their progress and updates.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 23, 2011, 08:40 AM
Steven,
I don't know if Bill has any left, but they were EXTREMELY reasonable in price. You can go to http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1442817 (http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1442817)
and download his catalog. In addition, the trees are priced postage included.

In addition go to Brents site and check out the possibilities. I'm sure there are other places to shop on line, these are the two I prefer.

Picture of the potting/trimming coming mid-week.

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Steven on January 23, 2011, 12:52 PM
Thanks Jay. Will keep it in mind once I have money coming in.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 26, 2011, 06:17 AM
As promised pictures to follow. BUT, after looking at my camera work I realize I need to do better, even if these pictures are of two just beginning trees. If I can not get good photos now, why should I believe I will do better with more advanced trees. I must learn.
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Jay on January 26, 2011, 06:27 AM
Picture one above show the tree with a large root section removed (on the left of the picture). Notice the green suggested cut points. Pix 2 is after trimming, 3 is the tree as it is now.

The picture below show the tree with the two root section planted as well as the cuttings.


I will leave the two trees alone for now and give them time to recover and grow. My thoughts are to cut back even more to make two small trees. Of what I've read, the process should take 3 to 5 years. I will come back to this thread every few months to document the progress... and yes the failures.

Thanks for viewing.... and ALL comments and  suggestions gladly received

Jay
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Adair M on November 17, 2011, 08:08 AM
Any updates?
Title: Re: Toyo Nishiki Japanese Flowering Quince
Post by: Joedes3 on November 17, 2011, 12:33 PM
Great thread!  Updates?