Author Topic: Chojubai Red propagation techniques  (Read 7894 times)

William N. Valavanis

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2013, 03:45 PM »
Yesterday afternoon, during my tour's visit at Fuyo-en Bonsai Garden in Omiya Bonsai Village I asked second generation bonsai artist Hiroshi Takeyama about chojubai varieties. He specializes in deciduous and unusual bonsai so I thought if anyone should know anything about chojubai he would, and he does.

Mr. Takeyama said there is only one variety of chojubai, the one with small red/orange flowers, other than the larger white form. I asked about a "rough bark" cultivar and he said there was none. When asked about the old bark seen on some of his bonsai he said the old bark flakes off and looks rough as they age. There is no substitute for time.

Tomorrow I'll ask other bonsai growers in Kyoto at the Taikan ten bonsai exhibition the same question to get some more "opinions" if you want to call them that.

Bill
 

Neli

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2013, 04:11 PM »
Did you see the bark on my tree? It looks so old...I have another one almost the same age...will take picture tomorrow. Different bark...very different...I have many chojubai...all from different places in Japan...most of them with different type bark..
I shall post  a picture tomorrow.
 

John Kirby

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2013, 04:49 PM »
Bill, I believe there is a thornless/barbless Cojubai (full dwarf) in Nagoya. I think I heard about it from Peter Tea when he was at Aichien. But I may be confused .......
 

Dan W.

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2013, 07:52 PM »
I believe that Michael Hagedorn is currently developing red Chojubai from two different mother plants. One has rougher bark, while the other pushes more flowers. (That's what I think I remember him saying anyway. )
 

JRob

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2013, 07:56 PM »
Dan Michael's Blog has several posts this past year on these amazing little jewels. HE and I have been discussing them everytime he is in STL for the meeting of the study group. JRob

 

Joshua Hanzman

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Re: Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2013, 08:36 PM »
I guess we'll see what the others at taikan ten say, but is it possible that a cultivar has emerged recently correct? According to Hagedorn one is 'easier' or 'quicker' to bark up and the other flowers far more.
 

Joshua Hanzman

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Re: Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2013, 10:07 PM »
But he also said that both bark up, the one that flowers more just takes longer... and he said, like Bill said, that the flaky bark falls off after a while. Furthermore, I remember him suggesting that chojubai owners fertilize light when they want stronger barking, because he noticed that discouraged bark shedding.

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Leo in NE Illinois

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Re: Chojubai Red "genetics"
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2013, 10:10 PM »
Joshua
Part of the confusion about genetics is that we in the west use 'Chojubai' as a cultivar name. When we see a name like that we assume, correctly for western nurseries, that all plants carrying that name are propagated from a single source plant that was given that name. In the west, they would all be genetically identical.

Japanese custom uses the cultivar name differently. When the Japanese give a name that to us looks like a cultivar name, it does not have to be identical. Different seedlings, that are genetically different, can carry the same cultivar name if they show the defining traits of that cultivar. They can differ in other traits, and still be called by the Japanese name because the key elements are present. I ran into this with Fuukirin - the Japanese Wind Orchid, Neofinetia falcata. The Japanese are as fanatical about them as they are about satsuki.

Chojubai I believe originally was a place name and the name was given to any dwarf quince from that area. It became accepted to mean one that looks like what we think of as Chojubai, and only best of the type are propagated by the nurseries. But they are not all genetically identical, as several different seedlings from the source area (Chojubai) were the founder stock for the 'Chojubai' in cultivation. In the Japanese system, a seedling from a 'Chojubai' parent can be called 'Chojubai' if it shows the key traits similar to its parents.

In the west, a seedling from 'Chojubai' would have to be given a different cultivar name because it is not genetically identical to its parent.

I believe the modern (post 1960's) Japanese nurseries have adopted a western approach to cultivar names, and if they propagate something by cuttings it gets the cultivar name, but propagated by seed it does not.

Hope that helps. The statement about mixed genetics in Chojubai is because the source material for Chojubai is actually several different clones that have small differences in traits such as speed to develop bark and frequency of bloom. All look pretty much the same, but there are small differences, because they are from different seeds, they are not all genetically identical. 
 

Joshua Hanzman

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Re: Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 10:41 PM »
That makes sense, and so, hagedorn and the gentleman from Japan are both correct, mystery solved... and chojubai would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!!

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Joshua Hanzman

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2014, 02:52 PM »
Bump for the extra questions Valavanis said he would ask in Japan?
 

Marc

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2014, 06:55 AM »
Disrespect and entitlement are rarely rewarded.
 

Joshua Hanzman

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Re:
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2014, 11:06 PM »
Marc, you want to elaborate on that?

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Sorce

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2014, 12:10 AM »
I don't beleive Josh was being disrespectful.   :-\

He just forgot to add this... :P



 

Joshua Hanzman

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Re: Chojubai Red propagation techniques
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2014, 06:35 PM »
It's not that Sorce, maybe a jealous exgf, doesn't like see their love flirt with someone else haha, see now I need a :P 


Marco, feel free to catch me outside MABS and tell me to my face why I was being disrespectful, I'll do my best to earn your respect.