Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Waslter Pall-hedge cutting methode  (Read 2418 times)
Don Dunn
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 191



« on: May 09, 2013, 03:27 AM »

I was looking for some sound advice on how to care for my Maples. After hearing a lot of what seemed like contradicting information on when and how to pinch, wire and prune. I ran across Walter pall's blog. Every thing I have read from him always seems like good advice. Being fairly new at studying Bonsai I had never heard this method before. I'm not sure I still understand it but it seems practical to me.
Has any one on this forum tried this method and what do you all think about it?
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013/02/refurbishing-japanese-maple-hedge.html

Maybe, this is what everyone does and I just missed the notice.
Do you do a combination of his and something else?
Do you think this method is good or bad?

 Undecided
Logged

augustine
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 143
USDA Hardiness: 7A

« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 08:17 AM »

My opinion is that Mr. Pall's hedge method is very good for trees in development. Others may disagree. I read about Mr. Valavanis' method which involves pinching and first bud removal for refined bonsai.

Lots of ways, depends upon level of refinement of your tree and your objectives.

Best,

Augustine
central MD 7a
Logged

Owen Reich
Hero Forum Member
*****
Posts: 660
USDA Hardiness: Nashville, TN 6b



WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 09:25 PM »

Yes, it really depends on your goals and stage of development of the tree.  For shohin, I use the method of keeping only the first set of leaves no matter the stage of development to keep the tree compact and branches thin.  I will grow sacrifice branches and preserve a few buds / shoots close to the trunk on shohin to thicken the "right" branches.  His method is interesting.  It is very important to keep light and air infiltration high though so make sure your canopy doesn't get too thick if you let shoots fully extend and harden off. 
Logged

Don Dunn
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 191



« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 02:44 AM »

Augustine
I looked  for information about Mr. Valavanis's method and could not find anything but a few youtubes of his beautiful trees. Could you point me in the right direction.  I would love to read about how he develops his Maples. 
Logged

Don Dunn
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 191



« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 02:54 AM »

So Owen, have you ever used the hedge method on your larger trees ?  Would you suggest that I use it on my trees. I'm trying to feel my way around all these different methods to understand what I should be doing.

Mr Pall indicated that the hedge method is what the professionals use in Japan at least that's the way I read it. When you studied how where you taught to train a maple? I appreciate and respect you opinions.
Thank you for the help
Logged

augustine
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 143
USDA Hardiness: 7A

« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 08:52 AM »

First, thank you Owen for your info.

Correction to Mr. Valavanis' technique. His technique (deciduous trees only) is to remove the first set of leaves (not buds) on the terminal buds as they are beginning to open. I would search this on the IBC or this forum on the word "Valvanis" and it should come up.

Secondly Harry Harrington's website, bonsai4me.com, also has a similar method. Look at the species guide for Acer Palmatum. He presents the info a bit differently but I think it is the same concept. Again these methods are for refined trees.

Bill V. states that this method takes a long time to perform and that he only does it on the trees he plans to show during a particular season (because it is so time consuming).

There seems to be some controversy with Walter's trimming method (as always in the bonsai world). However, I always take Walter's, Bill's, Owen's, Kirby's, Brent's and some other's advice as gospel. These guys "got the goods." One must distinguish between good and not so good advice in the forums.

Editorial (again) - I recently attended a meeting of the Baltimore Bonsai Club in which we were deciding which trees were good enough for the Potomac Bonsai Assoc. show at the Nat'l Arboretum. It said alot about many people's ideas of good trees. A number of folks brought little sticks to be considered for the show. We have a long way to go in the USA and we have to learn to be honest with ourselves.

Best to all,

Augustine
central MD 7a
Logged

William N. Valavanis
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 127

« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2013, 04:58 PM »

I noticed my name being used here and would like to correct an error.

I remove the small BUDS, not the first leaves on developed deciduous bonsai which are trying to be maintained and refined. The first two leaves are NOT removed, unless they get larger later on during the growing season at which time they too might be removed.

I find it difficult to believe Walter indicated bonsai professionals in Japan use his "hedge cutting" method. When was Walter in Japan last to see this technique?

Complete details on how I develop my maple bonsai can be seen in my newest book Classical Bonsai Art: A Half Century of Bonsai Study, the Creations and Passion of William N. Valavanis. There are about 89 pages profusely illustrated with maple bonsai in the 256 page book featuring over 675 photos. It can be ordered here:

http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1442819

There are many different methods to develop bonsai, each artist has their own favorites and work differently with various species and localities. I suggest carefully looking at the bonsai of the artist and if you like their work, study their techniques and try them before adopting them completely. Go slowly.

Bill

PS: We have been busy bud pinching maple and other deciduous bonsai on a daily basis here for a few weeks...
Logged

Don Dunn
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 191



« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2013, 07:58 PM »

Mr. Valavanis
First I want to tell you how much I loved seeing your trees on the Internet. You are truly a master and that's not kissing %$&#, it's just the truth. When I see two people with such different methods and both have such amazing trees it makes me think a lot about which to method to try. Your method, even though I have not yet read your book seems to be close to what most others are doing.
 Please excuse me, you are correct Walter Pall did not say that the Japanese use that method.
 He said
"How do you suppose the bonsai nurseries with tens of thousands of maples get the dense growth? By pinching every new shoot? With thousands of Chinese?. Or by cutting with a hedge pruner?"
I guess I just put that statement together with other things he was saying and over stated what he said. I sure do not mean to miss quote any one. 
You said, PS: We have been busy bud pinching maple and other deciduous bonsai on a daily basis here for a few weeks.
Do you mean on fully developed trees?
I am pretty new and I am trying to  soak up every thing I can and sometimes doing so gets things a little confused for me..
Thank you for the great advice and I will check into your book.
 
Logged

William N. Valavanis
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 127

« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2013, 08:02 PM »

Yes, ONLY developed bonsai are bud pinched. Bonsai which are being developed and pre-bonsai are NOT bud pinched. They are rather allowed to grow. When the form has been established they are then bud pinched.

Bud pinching limites the new growth and that's not what is being desired when training.

Hope this helps.

Bill
Logged

Owen Reich
Hero Forum Member
*****
Posts: 660
USDA Hardiness: Nashville, TN 6b



WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2013, 08:21 PM »

I've never used the "hedge trimming method" nor have I seen it used on trees in Japan.  Perhaps it's used in production fields outside of where I lived.  Walter's method is documented an the results shown.  I cannot weigh in on how good the method works without "seeing inside" the trees in 3D.  

When I created a semi-cascade Acer palmatum over the last two years, I defoliated it with the exception of the weakest buds 3 times in a row and wired all the shoots into position and then removed the wire after two weeks.  So, there are multiple ways to make maple bonsai.  I'm not knocking Walter's way, but need to try it before I pass judgement.  There are people in Japan who have crappy trees too  Wink.  Like Bill said, evaluate someone's trees and if you like their results, copy.  Bill and I do very similar things to our trees.  
Logged

Owen Reich
Hero Forum Member
*****
Posts: 660
USDA Hardiness: Nashville, TN 6b



WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 08:24 PM »

I do think that Walter's method has merit for developing stock or perhaps the "middle" of getting a tree to refinement.
Logged

Don Dunn
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 191



« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 11:13 PM »

Thank You Mr. Valavanisules
Because I do not know all the excepted rules/methods, I get confused many times when some one tells how they perform a task. Not knowing that they are talking about a developed tree, I may try it on something I am trying to train. Thank you for clearing that up for me. 
Logged

Don Dunn
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 191



« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2013, 11:20 PM »

Owen
 
You said-
 "When I created a semi-cascade Acer palmatum over the last two years, I defoliated it with the exception of the weakest buds 3 times in a row and wired all the shoots into position and then removed the wire after two weeks.  So, there are multiple ways to make maple bonsai."
That was very simply put and gives a lot of information and guidance for me.
Thank you for your help.
 
Logged

augustine
Full Forum Member
***
Posts: 143
USDA Hardiness: 7A

« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 08:56 AM »

Bill,

Sorry for getting your methods wrong. (I was referring to information you contributed on one of the forums. I would not disseminate info from any of your copyrighted material.)

The method I was thinking of was for developing small leaves for deciduous species in which you explain to remove the center developing new leaves and only allowing two leaves to remain.

Anyway I greatly appreciate your contribution to the community.

Best,

Augustine
central MD 7a
Logged

Sorce
Hero Forum Member
*****
Posts: 514
USDA Hardiness: 6.3



« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 06:07 AM »

In Walter's Defense,
   http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013/02/refurbishing-japanese-maple-hedge.html?m=1

You must read the article. Vigor, read, Vigor.

Sorce
Logged

Pages: [1] 2
Print
 
Jump to: