Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Evergreen Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: MatsuBonsai on August 10, 2009, 08:13 PM

Title: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on August 10, 2009, 08:13 PM
I selected this Dwarf Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris) as one of the trees to take for a weekend with Akio Kondo.  I have only had the tree about a year and had only repotted it to get it into good soil.  It had been grown for quite a while in a big nursery can in growers mix without repotting.  Once repotted this Spring it exploded with new growth, and was ready be worked.

Akio was a big help in deciding a direction for this tree.  John Kirby and I briefly discussed it while Akio worked on a big Ash Juniper.  We were initially thinking about making a much shorter tree than the final result.  I think Akio's choice of bringing a branch up to form a new apex was a much better choice.

It will grow another year in this pot, then into a Jim Gremel nanban pot, thanks to Dr. Kirby.

I asked Akio about a proper stand, when this is ready to show.  He said a 10" high stand would be good.  A slab would be too small/short for this tree.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: shimsuki on August 11, 2009, 07:42 PM
Good work
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: AlexV on August 12, 2009, 10:34 AM
Hi John,

That is a pretty dramatic change.  I am wondering about the bottom left branch, I can't see it very well so I can't tell if it is coming out the side or back.  Either way, will you pull it around to make a pad on the left?  I have seen a couple pines with a similar profile and I really enjoy the look.  Good luck with this one!

Alex V
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 12, 2009, 05:30 PM
Very nice pine and good work. Something that intrigues me though, myself included, will take any kind of pine and style it in the traditional JBP style, why is that. Is it that we secretly we want a JBP, but will use what we have and can afford to make  it resemble a JBP....

keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: bonsaikc on August 12, 2009, 07:21 PM
Very nice pine and good work. Something that intrigues me though, myself included, will take any kind of pine and style it in the traditional JBP style, why is that. Is it that we secretly we want a JBP, but will use what we have and can afford to make  it resemble a JBP....

keep it green,
Harry

Harry, I don't think this is styled as a Japanese black pine at all. It is styled like a pine. I'm not sure what I would call a "Japanese black pine style."

Chris
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: King Kong on August 12, 2009, 07:56 PM
Just a thought.......

__gary
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on August 12, 2009, 09:46 PM
Hi John,

That is a pretty dramatic change.  I am wondering about the bottom left branch, I can't see it very well so I can't tell if it is coming out the side or back.  Either way, will you pull it around to make a pad on the left?  I have seen a couple pines with a similar profile and I really enjoy the look.  Good luck with this one!

Alex V


Alex,

Thanks for your comments.  This is actually a back branch that forks.  It was brought around quite a bit, but began to split at at the fork.  It will continue to be brought around a little bit more.  Once this is repotted (Spring 2011) into a more suitable pot and this new front I think it will look even better.  Keep in mind, this is just a first styling and should continue to improve through the years as work continues.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on August 12, 2009, 09:54 PM
Very nice pine and good work. Something that intrigues me though, myself included, will take any kind of pine and style it in the traditional JBP style, why is that. Is it that we secretly we want a JBP, but will use what we have and can afford to make  it resemble a JBP....

keep it green,
Harry


Harry,

Thanks for your comments.  I thought before, during, and after the work was complete it looked much more like a 5 needle pine to me.  From afar, Akio even asked initially if it were 5 needle as I brought it into the work area.

I'm curious now, what would you consider JBP style?  What would you suggest, or how would you style this tree differently?
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on August 12, 2009, 10:03 PM
Just a thought.......

__gary


Gary,

Thanks for the virt.  This was about where I was initially thinking for this tree.  However, after seeing the finished product and imagining how the tree might fill in I think I prefer the taller tree.  Going shorter would take the gradual taper and quicken it right at the apex.  I like having options with more branches for future development.  There are so few branches in the "correct" places I would hate to remove any more at this point.  However, I won't rule it out for some point in the future.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 12, 2009, 10:24 PM
Your tree reminds me of a black pine, no problem, I would be proud to own it, White pine is another issue all together, they have a long main branch that bugs the hell out of me.

keep it green, Harry

Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 13, 2009, 10:09 AM
Very nice pine and good work. Something that intrigues me though, myself included, will take any kind of pine and style it in the traditional JBP style, why is that. Is it that we secretly we want a JBP, but will use what we have and can afford to make  it resemble a JBP....

keep it green,
Harry

Harry, I don't think this is styled as a Japanese black pine at all. It is styled like a pine. I'm not sure what I would call a "Japanese black pine style."

Chris























To me , it's a style when you see it,you know it.  I'm not knocking the tree, I think it turned out nice. Im giving you
MHO that's all.

keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on August 13, 2009, 11:10 AM

To me , it's a style when you see it,you know it.  I'm not knocking the tree, I think it turned out nice. Im giving you
MHO that's all.

keep it green,
Harry

Harry,

I don't think anyone is accusing you of knocking the tree, I at least am trying to better understand your comments.  What is it that you see that makes this (and others) JBP style? 

In regards to your white pine comment, are you referring to the tree you pictured or all white pines?

Give us something more than, "you know it when you see it".
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 13, 2009, 01:21 PM
It's like a beautiful woman, you know when you see her. The Japanese love to have one lower long branch on a JWP if possible, of course the majority aren't designed that way, I don't like to into a lot of detail when I type, it takes too much time with one finger. Your tree is the traditional triangle shape with the branches guy wired down, like it's been tortured by years of snow.

A few examples of the JWP style that is popular in Japan, I don't care for the design......

http://www.brusselsbonsai.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/japanese_five_needle_pine_specimen.html (http://www.brusselsbonsai.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/japanese_five_needle_pine_specimen.html)

keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: bonsaikc on August 13, 2009, 03:41 PM
It's like a beautiful woman, you know when you see her. The Japanese love to have one lower long branch on a JWP if possible, of course the majority aren't designed that way, I don't like to into a lot of detail when I type, it takes too much time with one finger. Your tree is the traditional triangle shape with the branches guy wired down, like it's been tortured by years of snow.

A few examples of the JWP style that is popular in Japan, I don't care for the design......

http://www.brusselsbonsai.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/japanese_five_needle_pine_specimen.html (http://www.brusselsbonsai.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/japanese_five_needle_pine_specimen.html)

keep it green,
Harry

Harry, to be fair, those aren't very representative of good JWP bonsai. They are all grafted on wire-embedded JBP stock and a few may be "okay" bonsai but will always need that graft union hidden.

Chris
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 13, 2009, 04:51 PM
Chris, do like the one I posted above, I could have bought it for 3k, it has a 7" trunk......
keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: bonsaikc on August 13, 2009, 09:51 PM
Harry,
I like that one as it is, however it seems to be simply a higher quality example of white on black grafted Japanese pine. Of course the graft union has been well covered. But I doubt I would pay $3000 for it (even if I could spare the cash).

Chris
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 13, 2009, 10:45 PM
Harry,
I like that one as it is, however it seems to be simply a higher quality example of white on black grafted Japanese pine. Of course the graft union has been well covered. But I doubt I would pay $3000 for it (even if I could spare the cash).

Chris

Never trust a picture......

keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on August 13, 2009, 11:01 PM
Nice graft
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 14, 2009, 08:46 AM
better graft
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on August 14, 2009, 01:53 PM
Better White Pine: http://bonsaitonight.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/daiju-en2-2.jpg (http://bonsaitonight.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/daiju-en2-2.jpg)

John
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on August 14, 2009, 03:07 PM
Nice tree, but too many zero's there for me...........

keep it green,
Harry

PS: Sorry we hijacked your thread John...
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: davestree on September 16, 2009, 01:28 PM
I thought that almost every japanese white pine for bonsai is grafted to black pine understock, very few are grown on their own roots. 
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on September 16, 2009, 02:44 PM
Davestree,
The high quality JWP are on their own roots, most are yamadori or very carefully cultivated nursery trees (seedlings or with some- cuttings). The trees we usually see are the mass produced grafts, they grow fast, are easily repotted and bark up on the lower trunk more eadily.

John
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Don Blackmond on September 16, 2009, 08:58 PM
Davestree,
The high quality JWP are on their own roots, most are yamadori or very carefully cultivated nursery trees (seedlings or with some- cuttings). The trees we usually see are the mass produced grafts, they grow fast, are easily repotted and bark up on the lower trunk more eadily.

John

this one is a seedling grown tree, unwired
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: davestree on September 17, 2009, 11:20 AM
That has very nice bark.  How long until the nice bark ?  How old is this one ?  Do you have a picture after wiring ?
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on September 17, 2009, 11:57 AM
Old  tree, nice bark, not sure I am convinced it started out as a literati, but it could be a nice one. Have you wired it yet (in all of your free time ;)?

John
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Don Blackmond on September 17, 2009, 05:07 PM
Old  tree, nice bark, not sure I am convinced it started out as a literati, but it could be a nice one. Have you wired it yet (in all of your free time ;)?

John

MatsuBonsai I apologize for interjecting this tangent in your thread.

John it was a bigger tree, reduced in height and has shari running down one side from the reduction.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on September 17, 2009, 05:41 PM
I apologize as well, Don that makes sense with the base and low taper. Thanks, John
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on September 19, 2009, 09:00 AM
No problem guys.  This one went off topic long ago.  Don, I am looking forward to seeing some more posts from you (perhaps in your own thread? ;) ).
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on September 20, 2009, 01:52 AM
Don likes to lurk.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: greerhw on September 20, 2009, 07:05 PM
...and sell trees.

keep it green,
Harry
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 05, 2011, 06:03 PM
Ok, let's get this topic back on track.

When Peter Tea was visiting this is one of the trees he worked on.  Akio did a great job getting this tree started, and Peter has done an incredible job with the next step.  The fun part, Peter mentioned that he will get a chance to work with Akio some while he's in Japan. 

Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 05, 2011, 06:06 PM
Day 1 was spent with the study group, so we didn't get a chance to finish before dinner and relaxing.  Day 2, more work, repotted, photographed, and finished for now.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 05, 2011, 06:07 PM
Steven Doyle Photography was kind enough to come and do some "special" photography for us.  Here's the final result.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: bwaynef on March 05, 2011, 08:56 PM
That one's *not* very hideous at ALL.  Good work by all involved.

I didn't notice at first (so it must work pretty well), but why did you choose that pot for this tree?
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 05, 2011, 09:15 PM
The pot is what Akio had suggested for the tree after his work.  John Kirby happened to have the perfect size Jim Gremel pot at his place and offered to sell it to me.  I've been waiting a year and a half to pair the two.  :)
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: akeppler on March 06, 2011, 02:13 AM
Kirby always seems to have a lot of nanban pots around since his trees never stay in the same pot for two repottings!


Nice tree and magnificent bark.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on March 06, 2011, 10:43 AM
Have spent two days wrapping and boxing pots, should have sold a lot more......... John
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 06, 2011, 03:12 PM
John, go ahead and send them my way.  :)
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Don Blackmond on March 07, 2011, 09:01 AM
Have spent two days wrapping and boxing pots, should have sold a lot more......... John

Is this 4 your move?
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on March 08, 2011, 01:17 AM
Si.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 08, 2011, 08:56 AM
So, Peter mentioned that he thought it would be fun to see Akio's work next to his, a year and a half later.

(http://bonsaistudygroup.com/conifer-bonsai-discussion/scots-pine-before-and-after/?action=dlattach;attach=2192;image) (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/conifer-bonsai-discussion/scots-pine-before-and-after/?action=dlattach;attach=9178;image)

I think it's filled in nicely.  I think Peter did an outstanding job with this trees next step.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: mcpesq817 on March 08, 2011, 09:47 AM
Very nice tree.  That's great that you've been able to work with two outstanding talents to develop it.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on March 09, 2011, 01:18 AM
Hey, that first picture looks like my front porch....... And I remember you weren't sure if you wanted Akio to "waste his time". Marvelous and fast progression of a great species.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: boon on April 05, 2011, 02:58 AM
John,
congratulations!  great work.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: KoPiSan on April 07, 2011, 05:27 PM
Wow.
That is stunning.

I'm just starting out in Bonsai.  I live in Lexington, KY.  Know of any good bonsai resources (suppliers etc.) or classes in Kentucky? (or even Cinci)
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: bwaynef on April 07, 2011, 07:00 PM
I'm just starting out in Bonsai.  I live in Lexington, KY.  Know of any good bonsai resources (suppliers etc.) or classes in Kentucky? (or even Cinci)

This is your lucky day!
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: bwaynef on April 07, 2011, 08:20 PM
Sorry to leave with a cryptic answer earlier.

http://www.matsubonsai.com/blog/category/Bonsai-Study-Group.aspx (http://www.matsubonsai.com/blog/category/Bonsai-Study-Group.aspx)
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on April 08, 2011, 10:33 AM
KoPiSan,

Welcome to the Bonsai Study Group forum.

You're certainly welcome to join us for study group anytime at my home, just south of Louisville.  We've got a small group of very interested individuals from as far away as Berea.  You can see some of what we've been up to here (http://www.matsubonsai.com/blog/category/Bonsai-Study-Group.aspx) and schedule here (http://www.matsubonsai.com/blog/page/Bonsai-Study-Group.aspx).

If you're interested, I would suggest you look into the ABS/BCI Symposium 2011 "Bonsai in the Bluegrass" (http://www.bonsaiinthebluegrass.com/) being held this June.  With 14 big name instructors, bonsai and suiseki exhibit, demos, and vendors, it's not to be missed.

The Greater Louisville Bonsai Society (http://www.louisvillebonsai.org/) is the host of "Bonsai in the Bluegrass" and has monthly meetings.  Members from Louisville and surrounding areas, Berea, Winchester, Richmond, and Southern Indiana.

The Bonsai Society of Greater Cincinnati (http://www.cincinnatibonsai.com/) (of which I am also a member) is incredibly active.  With 3rd Thursday demo/lectures and following Saturday workshops, Continuing Bonsai Education program (for those newer to the sport), and an Advanced Study Group.  There is a cost and time commitment for the additional programs.  In addition to the immediate Cincinnati area, they draw quite a few from the Lexington area, Indianapolis, and Northern Ohio.  
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Peter Tea on April 09, 2011, 08:25 AM
Hey, that first picture looks like my front porch....... And I remember you weren't sure if you wanted Akio to "waste his time". Marvelous and fast progression of a great species.

It was really fun to work on the tree and be apart of it's development.  John did a great job in caring for the year and getting so much growth on it since Akio worked on it.  I'm excited to see John develop the tree more in the future and continue a long history of this tree.  Thanks for letting me work on the tree John!

And thanks to Steven Doyle Photography for shooting such a great photo!
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on April 09, 2011, 10:55 AM
Peter,

You did great work while you were here.  You are certainly welcome back any time! 
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 13, 2013, 08:02 PM
So, that Owen guy was here this past weekend.  Study group on Saturday, one-on-one on Sunday.  

There was a little bit of day light left when I got home today, but it was too cold to try to erect some kind of backdrop.  That's long winded for "sorry for the horrible photo".
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: AlexV on March 13, 2013, 11:22 PM
The progression on this tree is awesome.  Amazing work in a very short time.  Thanks for keeping it up.

Alex
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Adair M on March 13, 2013, 11:24 PM
Matsu,
That tree is really shaping up!  And, lucky you!  You've had a "Who's Who in Bonsai" work on it!

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Don Blackmond on March 14, 2013, 07:54 AM
Nice work.  It looks much better now than it did after the last session.  Thinned out with negative space gives it much better presence.  Last time, it looked good, but top heavy and unbalanced.  As a result, I didn't like the pot since it looked too small and unsupportive.  Now, with more development and reduction, it looks like a much better combination.

Your tree has a great trunk and lots of character.  I love the bark.  You should be very pleased with your efforts.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Judy on March 14, 2013, 08:05 AM
Awesome.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 16, 2014, 12:02 PM
2014 repotted into a different pot.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Yenling83 on March 16, 2014, 01:02 PM
Looken good!
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Owen Reich on March 16, 2014, 10:25 PM
No nanban?   :'(
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 17, 2014, 08:21 AM
I like to switch things up. The nanban really works well, so it will ikely stay in rotation. I really like this pot and just needed a hint of an excuse to use it.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Judy on March 17, 2014, 09:07 AM
I love how the base looks in this pot.  Amazing bark, wow.
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Josh on March 17, 2014, 08:40 PM
This is a very cool tree, no doubt.  Looking healthy, responding nicely to styling.  Single criticism, the middle third of the tree appears nearly straight upright.  It may not be that way in person? 
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: John Kirby on March 24, 2014, 01:54 PM
John, back to the Gremel pot........
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: MatsuBonsai on March 25, 2014, 09:31 PM
I love how the base looks in this pot.  Amazing bark, wow.

Thanks Judy!


This is a very cool tree, no doubt.  Looking healthy, responding nicely to styling.  Single criticism, the middle third of the tree appears nearly straight upright.  It may not be that way in person? 

You're right.  This is tree is probably 5 years away from a major restyle, so should be able to address this then.



John, back to the Gremel pot........

Patience.  It will go back in the Gremel pot eventually, just felt like a change.  I think I have 3 empty Gremel nanbans at the moment.  :)
Title: Re: Scots pine before and after
Post by: Owen Reich on March 25, 2014, 10:58 PM
I'll take two of them.