Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Evergreen Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: GBHunter on August 19, 2014, 08:57 PM

Title: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 19, 2014, 08:57 PM
Is there a way to make this tree bac bud?
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 19, 2014, 10:19 PM
 Next July remove the years new growth all the way down to where it started growing that year. This will force it to back bud.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Dirk on August 20, 2014, 08:16 AM
Remove even more. cut back into old needles
And feed, feed, feed.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: bwaynef on August 20, 2014, 09:23 AM
I feel like it should be said up front that I've very little experience with mugo. 

One of the universal truths of getting backbudding is to ensure the health and VIGOR of the tree.  Healthy vigorously growing trees are better able to respond to whatever method is chosen to induce backbudding.

Soil.  Sun.  Water.  Fertilizer.  Copious amounts of those last 3.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: exitsanity on August 20, 2014, 12:26 PM
There's a lot of information from 'Vance Wood' on Bonsai nut. They have a compiled thread here: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?14635-A-question-for-Vance-Wood (http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?14635-A-question-for-Vance-Wood)

I only have one mugo and very little experience with it.

According to what I've read, generally they backbud at the base of old needles (unlike JBP). So leave needles where you want buds to grow. (That doesn't mean you won't get backbudding from needle-less branches, just less likely)
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 20, 2014, 02:42 PM
  Vance was trying to register here too but was having problems. Don't know if he got it resolved or not. Hes the man. And also a friend. He probably knows more about Mugo pines than anyone. Google Mugo pine bonsai and the trees you see are his. This is one I got to see this summer when I visited him at his clubs show.
 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on August 20, 2014, 10:17 PM
Actually Vance is the North American Nursery Mugo guy , look to Europe to see what the collected trees look like.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Adair M on August 20, 2014, 11:56 PM
Vance did register here. He even posted a couple times.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 21, 2014, 01:49 AM
Vance is in the local club here. The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits.

I am hoping to push the needles back into the "mound" ,the pot is intentionally oversized as the soil it came in was unacceptable.  Well while we are here ..lol..This question has been bouncing around between my two brain cells. For pines and other trees that dwell in forests why do we use inorganic soil? These trees grow in soil that is littered with organic debris in their natural enviroment, why not simulate that? I try to add some pine bark and in the fall some crushed leaves plus needles. In the spring these things other than pine bark are removed.

Paul C.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on August 21, 2014, 05:27 AM
You should be able to push it back, young tree, good environment. Ask Vance what he foes, I will bet it is pretty similar, ifnor identical ti what mfrary posted .

Soil, pots and the forest are not the same thing. Conditions in the ground are much more forgiving than in a pot. In organic mixes have many advantages including uniformity both spatially and temporally. Lots written here and elsewhere on soils.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 21, 2014, 06:10 AM
You should be able to push it back, young tree, good environment. Ask Vance what he foes, I will bet it is pretty similar, ifnor identical ti what mfrary posted .

Soil, pots and the forest are not the same thing. Conditions in the ground are much more forgiving than in a pot. In organic mixes have many advantages including uniformity both spatially and temporally. Lots written here and elsewhere on soils.

I was just curious thats all, thank you for the answer.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 21, 2014, 10:30 PM
Vance is in the local club here. The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits.

I am hoping to push the needles back into the "mound" ,the pot is intentionally oversized as the soil it came in was unacceptable.  Well while we are here ..lol..This question has been bouncing around between my two brain cells. For pines and other trees that dwell in forests why do we use inorganic soil? These trees grow in soil that is littered with organic debris in their natural enviroment, why not simulate that? I try to add some pine bark and in the fall some crushed leaves plus needles. In the spring these things other than pine bark are removed.

Paul C.

  That's the club I'll be joining! Boons endorsement makes deciding which club to join that much easier.
 Now.... I wonder what Boons thoughts are on floor dry? Hmmmm.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 21, 2014, 10:49 PM
I was in that club for a year and was very disappointed(I will avoid specifics but there are reasons) thats when I talked to Boon and onthers and was advised not to join it. Everyone recommended the Ann Arbor bonsai club.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 23, 2014, 09:33 AM
I was in that club for a year and was very disappointed(I will avoid specifics but there are reasons) thats when I talked to Boon and onthers and was advised not to join it. Everyone recommended the Ann Arbor bonsai club.

  How would this Boon know anything about this club? Was he a member there? Or does he have a list of clubs to avoid? Is he scared (and he should be) to go to Detroit?
  I am in awe of Boon though. He seems to have an almost cult like following. Like David Karesh or Sun Yung Moon. Or the pied piper of Hamlin. Telling unquestioning subjects his bonsai gospel is the only way to good bonsai and they eat it up. I can't believe all of his followers are all such mindless drones. Hanging on his every word without question.
  As for him to tell someone not to join a certain club because he doesn't like the views of some people in that club is very wrong. Makes me want to join that club even more. Well that and Vance Wood is a friend of mine.

  Have a good day!
 Mike Frary.
 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Chrisl on August 23, 2014, 10:07 AM
Oh c'mon Mike, aren't you a bit exaggerating?  I've been on this board for a couple yrs now I guess, and bnut, and I don't share your experience at all.  Plus, you do realize, many of his students are here incl. John?  I'm not with Boon, but nevertheless found your post somewhat insulting.  Sorry, but I'm getting a bit tired of people dissing Boon and his students. 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 23, 2014, 10:35 AM
Boon was an afterthought.  I already did not like this club for my reasons plus Boon was not the only one. I am not saying your experience will be thesame as mine. I was unhappy there and left I did not like the way I was treated, talked to the ppresident of the club to let him know why im leaving. I was very disappointed at the excuse I was given for the members behavior and left. Never looked back. Im not following Boon like a mindles drone its just what he said was true in my experience.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: coh on August 23, 2014, 10:35 AM
LOL (at MFrary comments), especially since GBHunter reported personal experience with the club...before he ever talked to Boon about it. Bonsai is a fairly small/tight knit community and word does travel.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on August 23, 2014, 10:47 AM
Mike,
I doubt Boon knows anything about the club being written about here. I have heard him discuss the issues associated with clubs and the frequent lack of knowledge about fundamental needs of bonsai trees, fundamental techniques and in tree design. If you can't learn to wire at your club and you can't learn fundamental techniques, what is the point? A good time, great, but if you want to learn how to make bonsai, then not so fine. As somone who is involved with two clubs, it is interesting to see the differences in commitment and activities and the profound differences in outcomes.

So, a number of us here have studied, and some continue to study, with Boon. Me, 9+ years. Don't insult someone you don't even know, he doesn't deserve it. You certainly don't have the bonsai chops to do it.

Want to improve your bonsai, pick a teacher and stick with them. In your area Vance Wood has a long and distinguished record of making very nice trees. He can teach you a lot. Listening to the internet noise about how to do bonsai will not result in improved trees. Want to see how fast a good teacher can help you make good trees? Look at Judy, Adair, Jrob, October, chrisi, etc., etc., etc. only one of them has worked extensively with Boon. Pick a teacher and learn. Please don't ask Boon to help you.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 23, 2014, 10:55 AM
I use books, and members on these boards whos trees I like. Other than that club I do not have access to teachers. So im on here and read study images. I only talked to boon to see if he new any other clubs here.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 23, 2014, 11:35 AM
Mike,
I doubt Boon knows anything about the club being written about here. I have heard him discuss the issues associated with clubs and the frequent lack of knowledge about fundamental needs of bonsai trees, fundamental techniques and in tree design. If you can't learn to wire at your club and you can't learn fundamental techniques, what is the point? A good time, great, but if you want to learn how to make bonsai, then not so fine. As somone who is involved with two clubs, it is interesting to see the differences in commitment and activities and the profound differences in outcomes.

So, a number of us here have studied, and some continue to study, with Boon. Me, 9+ years. Don't insult someone you don't even know, he doesn't deserve it. You certainly don't have the bonsai chops to do it.

Want to improve your bonsai, pick a teacher and stick with them. In your area Vance Wood has a long and distinguished record of making very nice trees. He can teach you a lot. Listening to the internet noise about how to do bonsai will not result in improved trees. Want to see how fast a good teacher can help you make good trees? Look at Judy, Adair, Jrob, October, chrisi, etc., etc., etc. only one of them has worked extensively with Boon. Pick a teacher and learn. Please don't ask Boon to help you.

 The original poster posted boon and others told him not to join that club. I've visited that club. It's the one closest to me at 180 miles away. I've met Vance and all of it's members and seen their trees. I'm actually Vances friend.
  It's insulting to that club and it's members to have someone say that their club is no good. Boon or not.
 "Bonsai chops" don't have anything to do with whether I'm qualified to post my opinion on this subject at all do they? We are talking about insulting a group of people not a tree. So thank you for the insult back. By the way. When were you looking in my back yard?
  I would never think of asking Boon to be my teacher. I don't have a Japanese black pine. And I imagine the air is too rarified up in boons cloud for my liking.
 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on August 23, 2014, 11:44 AM
It would only be rarified if you tried to make it so. Good luck.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: izk_zero on August 23, 2014, 12:25 PM
I don't know that it has already been stated, but I have found that I get good backbudding on my mugos when I put them in the ground for a couple years and fertilize regularly. If you want something that looks good now you can always put some curve in the branches and just have the appearance of compact growth. hope this helps.  :)
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 23, 2014, 12:29 PM
  Thank you John. I can only hope and pray to become as good at bonsai as the rest of you. Haaaa hahaha. Going and getting my axe and work on my" chops"!

Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 23, 2014, 04:15 PM
Mike,
I doubt Boon knows anything about the club being written about here. I have heard him discuss the issues associated with clubs and the frequent lack of knowledge about fundamental needs of bonsai trees, fundamental techniques and in tree design. If you can't learn to wire at your club and you can't learn fundamental techniques, what is the point? A good time, great, but if you want to learn how to make bonsai, then not so fine. As somone who is involved with two clubs, it is interesting to see the differences in commitment and activities and the profound differences in outcomes.

So, a number of us here have studied, and some continue to study, with Boon. Me, 9+ years. Don't insult someone you don't even know, he doesn't deserve it. You certainly don't have the bonsai chops to do it.

Want to improve your bonsai, pick a teacher and stick with them. In your area Vance Wood has a long and distinguished record of making very nice trees. He can teach you a lot. Listening to the internet noise about how to do bonsai will not result in improved trees. Want to see how fast a good teacher can help you make good trees? Look at Judy, Adair, Jrob, October, chrisi, etc., etc., etc. only one of them has worked extensively with Boon. Pick a teacher and learn. Please don't ask Boon to help you.

 The original poster posted boon and others told him not to join that club. I've visited that club. It's the one closest to me at 180 miles away. I've met Vance and all of it's members and seen their trees. I'm actually Vances friend.
  It's insulting to that club and it's members to have someone say that their club is no good. Boon or not.
 "Bonsai chops" don't have anything to do with whether I'm qualified to post my opinion on this subject at all do they? We are talking about insulting a group of people not a tree. So thank you for the insult back. By the way. When were you looking in my back yard?
  I would never think of asking Boon to be my teacher. I don't have a Japanese black pine. And I imagine the air is too rarified up in boons cloud for my liking.
 D

I left the club because I did not care for the way I was being treated! Not because anyone told me not to join. AFTER that incident Boon and others stated they knew the club and have students in Michigan that leveled the same complaints I did. So YES these people where there and yes they did not like it and yes former members have stated the same objections to the club that I did. Mine were a bit more personal but similar. Please do not put type in my message where there was none. It was a person that was a member of said club that went to train with other masters and they could not believe how badly he was trained. These people have also gone to the Bonsai show and one of these people said "if thats the kind of plants you want to make then this is the club for you! But if you are looking for real bonsai then check this club out(they would give me a card). I dont care if you have a good experience,  I know that I was not welcome there!
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on August 23, 2014, 05:44 PM
Mike,
I doubt Boon knows anything about the club being written about here. I have heard him discuss the issues associated with clubs and the frequent lack of knowledge about fundamental needs of bonsai trees, fundamental techniques and in tree design. If you can't learn to wire at your club and you can't learn fundamental techniques, what is the point? A good time, great, but if you want to learn how to make bonsai, then not so fine. As somone who is involved with two clubs, it is interesting to see the differences in commitment and activities and the profound differences in outcomes.

So, a number of us here have studied, and some continue to study, with Boon. Me, 9+ years. Don't insult someone you don't even know, he doesn't deserve it. You certainly don't have the bonsai chops to do it.

Want to improve your bonsai, pick a teacher and stick with them. In your area Vance Wood has a long and distinguished record of making very nice trees. He can teach you a lot. Listening to the internet noise about how to do bonsai will not result in improved trees. Want to see how fast a good teacher can help you make good trees? Look at Judy, Adair, Jrob, October, chrisi, etc., etc., etc. only one of them has worked extensively with Boon. Pick a teacher and learn. Please don't ask Boon to help you.

 The original poster posted boon and others told him not to join that club. I've visited that club. It's the one closest to me at 180 miles away. I've met Vance and all of it's members and seen their trees. I'm actually Vances friend.
  It's insulting to that club and it's members to have someone say that their club is no good. Boon or not.
 "Bonsai chops" don't have anything to do with whether I'm qualified to post my opinion on this subject at all do they? We are talking about insulting a group of people not a tree. So thank you for the insult back. By the way. When were you looking in my back yard?
  I would never think of asking Boon to be my teacher. I don't have a Japanese black pine. And I imagine the air is too rarified up in boons cloud for my liking.
 D

I left the club because I did not care for the way I was being treated! Not because anyone told me not to join. AFTER that incident Boon and others stated they knew the club and have students in Michigan that leveled the same complaints I did. So YES these people where there and yes they did not like it and yes former members have stated the same objections to the club that I did. Mine were a bit more personal but similar. Please do not put type in my message where there was none. It was a person that was a member of said club that went to train with other masters and they could not believe how badly he was trained. These people have also gone to the Bonsai show and one of these people said "if thats the kind of plants you want to make then this is the club for you! But if you are looking for real bonsai then check this club out(they would give me a card). I dont care if you have a good experience,  I know that I was not welcome there!

 "The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits" Is that the one?
And the trees at the show weren't real bonsai? What were they? Plastic replicas? Pictures? What?
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Adair M on August 23, 2014, 06:26 PM
M. Frary,


I have no idea of the quality of the trees that were displayed at the show you attended.  Does the club photograph the show and post them on their website? 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 23, 2014, 07:18 PM
I have some photos but for whatever reason they dont post. I will keep working on it. I was treated badly by the members. I did not care what their trees look like, I just repeat what I was told, its just their opinion anyway so who cares. But the way the members behaved was not an opinion.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on August 23, 2014, 07:26 PM
Lets close this, beginning to sound like other sites.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 23, 2014, 07:33 PM
http://www.fourseasonsbonsai.com/pages/2007.html (http://www.fourseasonsbonsai.com/pages/2007.html)

hat might be best.
here is the link.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Bonsai Study Group Admin on August 23, 2014, 07:45 PM
Let's try to get things back on track and onto the subject of mugo, shall we?
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on August 23, 2014, 09:06 PM
Izk_zero,
I am impressed that you can grow mugo pines in the Arkansas river valley. Have you been able to move them to bonsai pots? I never could in NW Arkansas.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Sorce on August 24, 2014, 04:56 AM
M  y understanding is Boon is a great teacher. It shows.
U  nfortunately, I can not get to an intensive.
G  oing to Michigan would be easier. ( surviving the D even!)
O  dd that "Mr. One Liner" hasn't thrown one in. C'mon Vance!

P  erfecting Mugo technique is Vances thing.
I  ndeed very different from JBP. Different as MI and CA!
N  o club is perfect. This forum is better for me!
E  veryone should have a great teacher. Adair = Son of Thunder!
S  orce.
       


Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Adair M on August 24, 2014, 07:58 AM
LOL!!

Very good, Sorce!

I've never had any luck with Mugos. All I ever had died, and the nursery stock trees all had reverse taper at the whorles.

JBP does far better in our climate, here in Georgia. From what I understand, our climate is very similar to southern Japan where JBP are native.

Vance is successful with Mugo in Michigan, which makes sense, it's a Northern European tree.

Bill Valavanis says its hard for him to grow JBP in Rochester because of the climate there. He prefers to work with Scots Pine.

I think one of the keys to success in bonsai is to work with species that will thrive in your climate.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Sorce on August 24, 2014, 09:24 PM
Oh hell no. ! Kermit of death!   Shouldve stayed  :-X

I absolutely agree with material in YOUR climate. That why I try and collect everything.

Sorce
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Leo in NE Illinois on August 26, 2014, 01:24 PM
I have in the past always found mugo a problem - all my attempts with nursery material have died - but with each I learned something new. I will try mugo again in the future. The most often repeated advise from Vance is that mugos really need full sun for the entire day to get good growth (picking the 'right spot' in my shady yard is a problem) and to only work the trees in the summer, when in active growth and to only work mugos once a year, then leave them recover for 12 months minimum is the best advice.

Vance is the one to give me the best advise I have ever received on northern pine species - mugo in particular, but from observing the results of his techniques - mostly the differences in timing of when techniques are performed - I think he really has the keys to using any single growth flush northern or high elevation pine. I think his techniques could also be applied to P. banksiana, the Jack Pine. The short needles and cold tolerance of Jack Pine suggest it could be a good bonsai candidate also. I have one Jack pine seedling in process, we will see how it does.

Not all clubs are good mixes for all personalities - I live equidistant between Chicago and Milwaukee, ended up a member of both clubs but spend most of my time with Milwaukee just because it is a better 'fit' for my personality. I need the "human contact" to encourage me to stay on track with my trees, and I get that from the club I chose. The enthusiasm of others rubs off, and gets me out in the yard working my trees. This is good. My two teachers over the years are Ted Mattson and currently Peter Tea. Both are well respected professionals, and I find I have to quietly & politely reject advice on techniques from others if their suggestions conflict with advice from my teachers. I also find I have to remind myself to double check any ideas on technique from the internet, including here. Though on BSI the quality of advice has been much higher quality than some other forums (lower "reject" rate) which is also good.

Right now I am keeping an eye out for a nice piece of Mugo nursery stock, to give it another try. Maybe by this time next year I'll have a mugo to post.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on August 26, 2014, 02:22 PM
I have never had problems with Mugo pine dieing on my I just could not get them to do what I needed so they were given away or thrown out. Now I have a green mound mugo and will try to coax it to grow.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Sorce on August 27, 2014, 05:22 AM
After killing a big box mugo this year, I found one at The Hidden Garden (nice place) that was about half the needle size labeled truedwarf? Or something.

Maybe will try that next year. Maybe will drop $200 on a RMJ.  :)

Sorce
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: izk_zero on September 03, 2014, 10:40 AM
hey John K.,

I really have had good luck with them. In fact there are about 10 planted in front of a bank in the town where I grew up. Were you thinking it would be too warm or wet here in Arkansas? That is one reason I haven't yet tried my luck with japanese white pine.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 18, 2014, 09:40 PM
Vance is in the local club here. The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits.

Are you serious Paul???


Paul C.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 18, 2014, 09:47 PM
Oh c'mon Mike, aren't you a bit exaggerating?  I've been on this board for a couple yrs now I guess, and bnut, and I don't share your experience at all.  Plus, you do realize, many of his students are here incl. John?  I'm not with Boon, but nevertheless found your post somewhat insulting.  Sorry, but I'm getting a bit tired of people dissing Boon and his students. 

But it's OK for him and his students to dis other people?  You seem my friend to be exercising a double standard.  Personally the fact that Boon considers me significant enough to comment on my existence is a sort of compliment.  Personally I have nothing against Boon but I do have difficulties with his students.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 18, 2014, 09:58 PM
I have some photos but for whatever reason they dont post. I will keep working on it. I was treated badly by the members. I did not care what their trees look like, I just repeat what I was told, its just their opinion anyway so who cares. But the way the members behaved was not an opinion.

I keep hearing that you were treated badly by the President or the members of the club.   Being a member of that club for well over twenty-years I would really like to hear what happened, the circumstances and the people involved.  If the club has a problem I want to help solve it.  You can send me a PM if you like.  However if you are not willing to say what happened I think it might be a good idea to put a lid on it.  However in the meantime I plan on finding out what really did happen and post the details.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 18, 2014, 10:12 PM
I really don't know why I should respond to the insults undeserved but I will give this little bit of information.  I have traveled all over the Rocky Mountains and the Desert South West this last summer and have found Mugo Pines cultivated in gardens all over the place, even in Texas.  In areas where they have extreme summer and winter conditions and they do fine.  Most of you guys have problems with them because you absolutely refuse to realize they have to be treated different than JBP.  It is not because the tree does not convert to bonsai culture.  I argue this; if the Mugo can survive the nursery trade in your area it is not the Mugo's fault they cannot survive your attempts to make them into a bonsai.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: bwaynef on October 19, 2014, 04:39 PM
Personally the fact that Boon considers me significant enough to comment on my existence is a sort of compliment.  Personally I have nothing against Boon but I do have difficulties with his students.

I think you're misreading what's been said. 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 19, 2014, 04:45 PM
Personally the fact that Boon considers me significant enough to comment on my existence is a sort of compliment.  Personally I have nothing against Boon but I do have difficulties with his students.

I think you're misreading what's been said. 

Really:  following is a copy of each of these comments.  How would you take them if pointed at you or the organization you have been associated with many years?

Aug 21

Vance is in the local club here. The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits.

I was in that club for a year and was very disappointed(I will avoid specifics but there are reasons) thats when I talked to Boon and onthers and was advised not to join it. Everyone recommended the Ann Arbor bonsai club.

Aug 23

Boon was an afterthought.  I already did not like this club for my reasons plus Boon was not the only one. I am not saying your experience will be thesame as mine. I was unhappy there and left I did not like the way I was treated, talked to the ppresident of the club to let him know why im leaving. I was very disappointed at the excuse I was given for the members behavior and left. Never looked back. Im not following Boon like a mindles drone its just what he said was true in my experience.

Aug 24

I left the club because I did not care for the way I was being treated! Not because anyone told me not to join. AFTER that incident Boon and others stated they knew the club and have students in Michigan that leveled the same complaints I did. So YES these people where there and yes they did not like it and yes former members have stated the same objections to the club that I did. Mine were a bit more personal but similar. Please do not put type in my message where there was none. It was a person that was a member of said club that went to train with other masters and they could not believe how badly he was trained. These people have also gone to the Bonsai show and one of these people said "if thats the kind of plants you want to make then this is the club for you! But if you are looking for real bonsai then check this club out(they would give me a card). I dont care if you have a good experience,  I know that I was not welcome there!

Aug 26

I have some photos but for whatever reason they dont post. I will keep working on it. I was treated badly by the members. I did not care what their trees look like, I just repeat what I was told, its just their opinion anyway so who cares. But the way the members behaved was not an opinion.




Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on October 19, 2014, 06:51 PM
Vance,
Not sure what the point is. if I remember correctly most of the issues for you with a Boon student revolved around Mr. Heath, not bonsai.

Mugo pines didn't work well for us in Arkansas, glad to hear they work well for others in the south. I never wasted my time trying them in Bonsai culture because we couldn't get 5 years out of them in the irrigated landscape. Besides that I wasn't going to waste my time on big box nursery stock, where mugos wete sold.

Mugos do well here in CT. We are using species in containers to play with the species. I would be more interested if I could get collected trees. While I haven't seen any North American Mugos that I really like, the collected trees in Europe can be spectacular.

Sorry you are angry.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 19, 2014, 07:07 PM
Vance,
Not sure what the point is. if I remember correctly most of the issues for you with a Boon student revolved around Mr. Heath, not bonsai.

Mugo pines didn't work well for us in Arkansas, glad to hear they work well for others in the south. I never wasted my time trying them in Bonsai culture because we couldn't get 5 years out of them in the irrigated landscape. Besides that I wasn't going to waste my time on big box nursery stock, where mugos wete sold.

Mugos do well here in CT. We are using species in containers to play with the species. I would be more interested if I could get collected trees. While I haven't seen any North American Mugos that I really like, the collected trees in Europe can be spectacular.



Sorry you are angry.

I am no angrier than you or anyone else would be if, for no reason at all, the things I documented to you and anyone else who would care to read them would be if they had been said about you.  You are also wrong that this has anything to do with Will Heath, you are the only one to mention his name.   If I had said anything to provoke this attack I would not be so miffed but I just joined this site and had not said a word on this thread until I found this flood of crap.

I think there is an old saying to the fact:   You are welcome to your own opinion but not your own set of factls. What's the point???? I could ask GBHunter the same question and my issues with a "Boon Student" was not mentioned.  Why did he find it necessary to bring this up? 

And as to Mugo not lasting more than five years??? I would bet you lose them after the fitst time they are repotted.

There is also another proverb:  Don't whiz down my back and tell me it's raining.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on October 19, 2014, 07:09 PM
They were never repotted they were in the landscape.

Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 19, 2014, 07:17 PM
They were never repotted they were in the landscape.



Are you telling me that no one in Rhode Island can grow Mugo Pines in a landscape?  That my friend sounds like a lot of crap.  I have seen them growing in areas with less hospitable climate than Rhode Island, and have been there for twenty-five to fifty years. 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on October 19, 2014, 07:26 PM
Vance, it was Arkansas, before I moved east 4 years ago. They do fine here.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 19, 2014, 08:50 PM
Vance, it was Arkansas, before I moved east 4 years ago. They do fine here.

That is possible.  But; I have seen them growing in Texas in the landscape. 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: bwaynef on October 20, 2014, 09:58 AM
Personally the fact that Boon considers me significant enough to comment on my existence is a sort of compliment.  Personally I have nothing against Boon but I do have difficulties with his students.

I think you're misreading what's been said. 

Really:  following is a copy of each of these comments.  How would you take them if pointed at you or the organization you have been associated with many years?

You're twisting the argument.  I don't really care how you take them.  I'm just trying to redirect you to the actual words ...and point out that you don't have much evidence that he commented on your existence.

Quote
Aug 21

Vance is in the local club here. The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits.

I was in that club for a year and was very disappointed(I will avoid specifics but there are reasons) thats when I talked to Boon and onthers and was advised not to join it. Everyone recommended the Ann Arbor bonsai club.
These are NOT BOON'S words.  These are someone pointing out that a comment was made about a club ...and re-emphasizing for the forum that you belong to that club.  That's not Boon saying anything about YOU.  Your club maybe, not you.  Not Boon commenting on your existence.

Quote
Aug 23

Boon was an afterthought.  I already did not like this club for my reasons plus Boon was not the only one. I am not saying your experience will be thesame as mine. I was unhappy there and left I did not like the way I was treated, talked to the ppresident of the club to let him know why im leaving. I was very disappointed at the excuse I was given for the members behavior and left. Never looked back. Im not following Boon like a mindles drone its just what he said was true in my experience.
There aren't even any supposed quotes by Boon here, so I wouldn't take any of this as a compliment that Boon commented on your existence.

Quote
Aug 24

I left the club because I did not care for the way I was being treated! Not because anyone told me not to join. AFTER that incident Boon and others stated they knew the club and have students in Michigan that leveled the same complaints I did. So YES these people where there and yes they did not like it and yes former members have stated the same objections to the club that I did. Mine were a bit more personal but similar. Please do not put type in my message where there was none. It was a person that was a member of said club that went to train with other masters and they could not believe how badly he was trained. These people have also gone to the Bonsai show and one of these people said "if thats the kind of plants you want to make then this is the club for you! But if you are looking for real bonsai then check this club out(they would give me a card). I dont care if you have a good experience,  I know that I was not welcome there!
We have in this quote the notion that Boon's aware of your CLUB's existence, but no reason to suspect he'd know you from Adam.  Nothing in THIS quote has information that can logically conclude that Boon is talking about Vance Wood.

Quote
Aug 26

I have some photos but for whatever reason they dont post. I will keep working on it. I was treated badly by the members. I did not care what their trees look like, I just repeat what I was told, its just their opinion anyway so who cares. But the way the members behaved was not an opinion.
Boon's not even referenced here.  No reason to think he's commenting on your existence.

Vance, I didn't spell it out for you in my previous reply hoping that you'd reconsider your position and re-read what was posted.  I point out above that, as I mentioned above, I believe you're misreading if you feel like any of these comments attributed to Boon were ABOUT you.  Take offense on behalf of your club maybe, but understand what's being said.


For the record, I've never met Boon, and don't have any immediately feasible plans to do so.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 20, 2014, 10:38 AM
Come on man you are the one misreading my post.  No where was I coming against Boon.  My entier involvement with this thread has been pointed at GBHunter not Boon.  I don't know Boon and have never talked to him but how do you justify this quote from GBHunter:  

Vance is in the local club here. The one that Boon and others told me to stay clear of or I would pick up bad information and bonsai habits. ?  That's pretty clear, right out of the blue before I even entered the thread.  I understand very well what is being said,.  You look at it as being nothing because, frankly, you don't have a dog in this hunt.  It means nothing to you on a personal level. 
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: bwaynef on October 20, 2014, 11:03 AM
Vance.

Quote from: Vance Wood
Personally the fact that Boon considers me significant enough to comment on my existence is a sort of compliment.

You're misreading things if you think that "Boon considers" you "significant enough to comment on" your "existence".  There is NOTHING in this thread that should lead a reasonable, logical, literate individual to believe that Boon knows your name.  Re-read my comments. 

I'll admit to not having much to take offense to in this thread, ...except you misreading ...probably (and understandably) because something less than positive was mentioned about something that you value: your club.

I'm not addressing that.  I'm simply addressing your comment about Boon commenting about you and you taking it as a compliment.  He didn't comment about you, so to take it as a compliment is ...wrong.

Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 20, 2014, 11:45 AM
I'm sure Boon does not consider me significant at all.  But GGHunter seemed to imply differently.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on October 20, 2014, 09:42 PM
this is pissing me off. First please read the #$/ damn thread. I dont know you Mr.Wood, but this is the type of shit I got at the club. I repeated what was told to me, I did not attack you personally, someone asked if that is the club you are in and I answer that is all. Also if you have shit to say I suggest addressing me, not talk. Like I'm a third party. What are you 14 year old girl?
 Boon had no damn clue who was in the club when he told me to avoid it! You would be very surprised at the people that told me not to join for a fact I know you know a few of them or thats what they say. I personally am done with this argument if reading and comprehension is an issue for you then thats your problem. Some of the members called me and asked me to join as they wanted young blood. After this exchange forget it!
This issue is closed.





Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on October 20, 2014, 10:04 PM
this is pissing me off. First please read the #$/ damn thread. I dont know you Mr.Wood, but this is the type of shit I got at the club. I repeated what was told to me, I did not attack you personally, someone asked if that is the club you are in and I answer that is all. Also if you have shit to say I suggest addressing me, not talk. Like I'm a third party. What are you 14 year old girl?
 Boon had no damn clue who was in the club when he told me to avoid it! You would be very surprised at the people that told me not to join for a fact I know you know a few of them or thats what they say. I personally am done with this argument if reading and comprehension is an issue for you then thats your problem. Some of the members called me and asked me to join as they wanted young blood. After this exchange forget it!
This issue is closed.
 Why should you be mad? You're just the one who posted what Boon said about the bonsai club. Correct? Not you or your club who was hurt by what you posted. I say hurt because you spread information you say Boon told you. Did he really? Or you making things up because it was you who couldn't learn from them and don't want to look inept so you blame them?






Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 20, 2014, 10:39 PM
Thanks for the support Mike.  If I had his real name we might be able to get to the bottom of this debacle.  However this is something we will probably never know.

On another issue that of Mugos in the landscape.   I have seen Mugos in a landscape in Southern Utah, you cannot get much more Mugo unfriendly than Southern Utah;
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Herman on October 21, 2014, 01:00 AM
O wei ... why do so many bonsai people look inward so much so that every disagreement becomes a battle...sure I think gb should have considered that those words about the said club would offend someone, but jumping in all guns blazing only aggravated the situation even more...hence nobody wins and most leave this argument with a grudge...

I'm guilty of this too...but now I see what is the end result of an argument such as this.

Ai

Kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on October 21, 2014, 04:54 AM
I hated the way I was treatedat the club, anquit thats it. If I am inept it would not be the firs time. I am a moron, I take up valuable space amd resources. To be honest I should be put ouy of my misery like a lame hore.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 21, 2014, 08:26 AM
I hated the way I was treatedat the club, anquit thats it. If I am inept it would not be the firs time. I am a moron, I take up valuable space amd resources. To be honest I should be put ouy of my misery like a lame hore.

Without details I have no way to address the issue.  You said you hated the way you were treated at the club?  Usually when I hate something bad enough I want to make it public, I at least remember the details.  Your implications verge on slander.   

You will not tell me what happened and claim now to not remember much.  If this is how you feel, and this is how it is, why did you bring it up?  That's kind of like stomping on one of those catchup packets you get at McDonalds--- then bitching about it to everybody you know because you got catchup on your pants and shoes.  To be honest with you I don't think you are inept or a moron I think your are the product of your own choices.  You just have to make different choices and one of them is learn how to listen.  I suspect you did not get treated with kid gloves while at Four Seasons.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on October 21, 2014, 10:41 AM
The reason I do not remember much is shortly after quitting the club I was diagnosed with stage 4 lymphoma. The drugs they used earased years from my memory and all I have left is what I wrote in a journal and what my wife tells me. I do no expect you to believe me an im certainly not going to submit pictures of the scars on my back from the lung surgeries.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: John Kirby on October 21, 2014, 11:53 AM
Interesting, Mugos in Southern Utah. Hot dry summers and coldish winters.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: M. Frary on October 21, 2014, 12:23 PM
The reason I do not remember much is shortly after quitting the club I was diagnosed with stage 4 lymphoma. The drugs they used earased years from my memory and all I have left is what I wrote in a journal and what my wife tells me. I do no expect you to believe me an im certainly not going to submit pictures of the scars on my back from the lung surgeries.


 Mr. Hunter. Hearing that who cares about who said or did what? I for one am truly glad to hear that you are still with us. I don't know how far away you live from the greater Detroit area but when I come down next year for the four Seasons bonsai club show I wouldn't mind meeting you and maybe talk trees and such.

 Sincerely
 Mike Frary
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 21, 2014, 12:25 PM
The reason I do not remember much is shortly after quitting the club I was diagnosed with stage 4 lymphoma. The drugs they used earased years from my memory and all I have left is what I wrote in a journal and what my wife tells me. I do no expect you to believe me an im certainly not going to submit pictures of the scars on my back from the lung surgeries.

But I do understand and sympathize, and I am sorry for what is happening to you.  The real problem here is this;  if you don't remember any of this the emotions surrounding the incident should have been erased as well.  But you decided to post anyway, something I am sure if you had thought about you would have realized someone is going to get real pissed off----and you would have been right.  I wish you well and hope for your recovery.

I'm with Mike I would like very much getting together with you over some coffee with pine needles and dirty finger-nails.  Mike can tell you.  At the last show we sat around sold trees and designed bonsai.
Title: Re: mugo
Post by: GBHunter on October 21, 2014, 05:52 PM
Those things sound nice and I do enjoy a good tree talk..NO COFFE as the police will be trying to get me out of a tree.
Im disabled a nd on disability since the surgeon messed up one of the 11 hour surgeries. I feel useless,  taking up space while working people pay my bill. Its not fair! As you can tell im not in a happy place now..yet another "benefit" of chemotherapy the damage this /$%= did makes me wonder if surviving was worth it. But Im all about friendship  ;D. Things were said and its done, in the past and useless to revisit, I apologize for any harm that my posts caused.

  Im not sur if bonzai is my thing yet..honestly Im usless to everyone.   :'(   just the way I feel. 37 years old and just a waste.

Title: Re: mugo
Post by: Jay on October 21, 2014, 07:14 PM
GBHunter, may I offer a thought. I do Bonsai for me. No one enjoys their trees more than I do. But... My trees are not show quality. Yes it matters what others think but in the end it matters more what I think.

You are going through an extremely tough situation. Don't get down on yourself. Let your trees be part of your life and part of your enjoyment. Do Bonsai for you......

You do matter.... You are who you are and your trees are part of that.

Jay

Title: Re: mugo
Post by: VanceWood on October 21, 2014, 07:47 PM
Those things sound nice and I do enjoy a good tree talk..NO COFFE as the police will be trying to get me out of a tree.
Im disabled a nd on disability since the surgeon messed up one of the 11 hour surgeries. I feel useless,  taking up space while working people pay my bill. Its not fair! As you can tell im not in a happy place now..yet another "benefit" of chemotherapy the damage this /$%= did makes me wonder if surviving was worth it. But Im all about friendship  ;D. Things were said and its done, in the past and useless to revisit, I apologize for any harm that my posts caused.

  Im not sur if bonzai is my thing yet..honestly Im usless to everyone.   :'(   just the way I feel. 37 years old and just a waste.

That's a crock.  Stop feeling sorry for your self and running yourself down.  Life is too precious to give up on it and give up on yourself.  So what if for now people are supporting you.  Can you support yourself at this point?  If the answer is no why feel guilty about it.  God knows there are thousands out there that can and could work that are just sucking off the system.  Those are the ones that are a waste of space and useless. Essentially they are maggots.  You my friend are genuinely disabled and are just the kind of person this system was set up to take care of.  Find something that occupies your time positively and do it.