Author Topic: JBP airlayer  (Read 12467 times)

John Kirby

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 11:55 AM »
On one of my visits to the Muranakas a few years ago, George and I talked about an article in Golden Statements from a number of years ago about a two year protocol to airlayer Japanese Black Pines from elongating candles instead of grafting. I had heard about the article from Ron Smith (Texas, now Arkansas?) who had been shown the article by Bill Hashimoto. George said that he had been interested in trying to airlayer, and when I visited with Frank Kroeker in 2007 he showed us a number of airlayers he was doing on Junipers and pines. It is good to see that he has come up with a 1 year technique that seems to be working (see his blog cited above). I have discussed this technique (the two year) with Jim Gremel who has done it successfully a number of times, but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend. Steve, the advantage of these over seedlings is you get a very thick trunk early with radial roots (if all goes well) and potentially very low branches- every where there was a needle could be a bud.

I personally have not tried to airlayer JBP, sticking with seedlings and seedling cuttings. I know a number of people who have, and like Ken's below I think they are dependent on good technique, good luck and picking the right aged subject- but I am sure that someone can go through Kinbon or Bonsai Today and find someone sucessfully airlayering and old JBP, I have seen the JWP articles, I just don't remember if I actually saw one on JBP. So Steve, I will disagree with my good friend Frank, and will suggest that you keep on trying, It may be just getting the cambium fully cleaned up, or the edge cut perfectly cleanly, take a look and see what might not have worked and try again. Good luck, I wouldn't call you a noob, just one of the guys.

John

 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 11:58 AM by John Kirby »
 

Yenling

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 12:44 PM »
but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend. Steve, the advantage of these over seedlings is you get a very thick trunk early with radial roots (if all goes well) and potentially very low branches- every where there was a needle could be a bud.

John

 

John
While you can't bend these trunks, could you not use the clip and grow method to put movement into the trunk?  What if you take a very short JBP airlayer and wire one of the shoots near the top at an angle.  Let this grow out and then you will have your first bend.  Would that work?   
 

bwaynef

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 02:47 PM »
I have discussed this technique (the two year) with Jim Gremel who has done it successfully a number of times, but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend.

One thing that could help is to start the layer at an angle so that the roots still flare out perfectly radially, but the trunk doesn't just jut straight out of the soil.

I question whether that would work as well as I'd like to think it would since the roots at the top of the angle may behave differently than the roots at the bottom since its often stressed that candles be cut straight across to avoid the resulting buds/needles/branches/growth to be uneven.  (My JBP physiology is a little weak in this area.)
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 03:18 PM »
You can, but then you have a large scar down low again. The Japanese have pretty much stopes using the large sacrifice branch method popular 20 or so years ago, on a pine with restricted growth, those wounds can take decades to heal. This is why you will often see the long escape branch at the top of the tree, two or three of these in succession can help you get a big tree with the scars on the back and hidden.

John
 

bwaynef

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 04:01 PM »
You can, but then you have a large scar down low again.

I'm not sure I follow.
 

bonsaikc

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 05:18 PM »
You can, but then you have a large scar down low again.

I'm not sure I follow.

I believe John was answering Yenling's question. Low sacrifice branches were used for years, and lots of them, but after decades these trees still tended to betray the method, giving them a man-made look.

Graydon from Florida has had success airl layering JBP. He not only scrapes the cambium, he kills it off with rubbing alcohol before putting his 3% rooting powder on it. I haven't generated enough fortitude to try it, but I do have the perfect subject for it, a tree that the top has to be chopped anyway!

Here's a link: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=935

Chris
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 06:03 PM by bonsaikc »
 

John Kirby

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 10:48 AM »
Wayne,
Healing big cuts on containerized JBP can be a decades long proposition. What is a big cut? Depends on how big your trunk is.
 

bwaynef

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 10:48 AM »
I have discussed this technique (the two year) with Jim Gremel who has done it successfully a number of times, but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend.

One thing that could help is to start the layer at an angle so that the roots still flare out perfectly radially, but the trunk doesn't just jut straight out of the soil.

Would an angled layer work to counter the "thick straight trunks that can't bend"? (That is, cutting the trunk diagonally rather than horizontally at the layer site.)
 

Steven

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 09:58 AM »
Applying a "angled" cut for an airlayer would only result in a straight trunk that is angled to whatever degree you make the cuts. I have seen Georges airlayered jbp's. He's put a few on Ebay. I know, also, where he takes his airlayers from. He uses the very top of the extremely exstended leader that he eventually cuts off his pines once he feels they are ready for the next stage. Now the top is dense with needles and small "preemie" branches and a apex candle. My take on using this material is to get as close to that dense area as you can to apply the airlayer. After everything is successful and the airlayer is removed you would use the base of the airlayer as your base, nebari area for the tree. Select what "preemie" branches you want to keep and wire those. Then wire movement in what will become the trunk of the tree. Now my take on all this is is that all of this will need to grow out for some years to develop the tree. His airlayers are not material that you can spend 3-7 yrs on and make a finished shohin pine. But his airlayers do have the primary characteristics to develop one over more time if one chooses to do so. Now to some of you what I just said probably does not make a bit of sense. What I said I have mentally in my brain(yes I do have one LOL) of how to do all of this. And by no means am I an expert. This is just my philosophical take on this procedure. I know the jbp I have an airlayer on may never take being that it is on older wood. If it doesn't I can live with that I ruined a good tree and will be stuck with a "coyote ugly" pine.
 

bwaynef

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 10:21 AM »
My idea was to add interest in the form of movement to the left or right (or front ...or back) starting at the soil.  You'd still be stuck with a trunk that's straight and unbendable but have a more interesting lower trunk.  The rest of the movement would be added w/ directional pruning.

I question whether it'd work as well as it does in my mind, but right now its the best I've got.
 

garywood

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 11:14 AM »
Wayne, i agree that these layers are only a good starting point and the angle layer would yield a wider base and movement out of the ground. I don't currently use this method but I intend to do some this spring. 
Wood
 

bwaynef

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2010, 11:26 AM »
but I intend to do some this spring. 

You're welcome :)
 

Steven

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2010, 11:52 AM »
Yes, using a branch to continue the trunk and applying directional pruning to get shape would work.
 

Jerry Norbury

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2010, 05:14 PM »
What happened to your airlayer  Steven?
 

Steven

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Re: JBP airlayer
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2010, 06:38 PM »
Didn't take the 2nd time Jerry. John Kirby is going to help me with a technique of applying jbp seedlings to where I want the base to be on the old airlayer to get the results I'm looking for. The tree overall is doing quite well. It is even re-barking up on the old airlayer ring around the trunk. It is still very noticeable though. It was decandled back in june and wired. Been keeping a check to see if the wire needs to come off and re-wired.