Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Evergreen Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Steven on October 21, 2009, 09:15 PM

Title: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 21, 2009, 09:15 PM
:)
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 22, 2009, 07:57 AM
Well Matsu what sort of text are ya wantin? I think those who work with JBP's or familiar with airlayers knows the technique of applyin the airlayer. As far as the tree it is a George Muranaka stock. I aquired it in 2007. After applyin the AL the first time it sat for just over a yr. Nothin. So I then re-scarred it and started again. If it doesn't take this time I'll just cut it off. The part I'm airlayerin would make a nice little shohin.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: MatsuBonsai on October 22, 2009, 08:42 AM
Well Matsu what sort of text are ya wantin? I think those who work with JBP's or familiar with airlayers knows the technique of applyin the airlayer. As far as the tree it is a George Muranaka stock. I aquired it in 2007. After applyin the AL the first time it sat for just over a yr. Nothin. So I then re-scarred it and started again. If it doesn't take this time I'll just cut it off. The part I'm airlayerin would make a nice little shohin.


Steven,

Usually threads are started to document a project/process or to ask for advice.  The better of both of these typically have a lot of information to help others who are not familiar with a project, or to solicit the best advice possible.

I'm familiar with JBP and airlayers, but admittedly have not done so on a JBP before.  I have not seen an air layer done with what looks to be black plastic?  You had mentioned in chat a while ago about purchasing a layer container?  Is this inside the plastic?  Did you use soil in the container?  New Zealand Sphagnum moss?  Rooting hormone?  How deeply did you cut?  How thick of a ring?  Are you looking for advice since you say the first one didn't take?

It's quite possible that someone not familiar with airlayers might stumble across this thread.  There are a number of different ways to get good results.  I was hoping you might document your process here for others to see.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 23, 2009, 08:22 PM
Ok, let's start at the beginning. The pics below are stock photos from George Muranaka(I got permission to use them) of what the tree lookd like prior to me buying it. These photos are from Feb 2008, maybe as early as Jan 2008. I can't give any info on it from that time as it is no longer obtainable.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 23, 2009, 08:37 PM
well as much as i'd like to continue i'm gonna have to postpone this til i can resize pics to suit the file size. apparently my comp does not want to cooperate. has anyone considered upping the size a bit? my pics are usually under 200kb but mainly range around 100kb to 160kb.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: T-Town Bonsai on October 23, 2009, 08:51 PM
I know George's trees and my question is why would you air layer it.  I think if you work with it the way it is you will have a great tree. 
Frank
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 24, 2009, 06:01 AM
I listened to Wayne's suggestion that the top would make a nice shohin pine the first attempt on the airlayer(4-28-08) :-\
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: T-Town Bonsai on October 24, 2009, 09:01 AM
So if this attempt doesn't work you have a tree that had  potential that now has a big scar at the top or even worse the top dies.
Personally I wouldn't attempt an air layer on a pine, but that is me.  I have seen George do it but it was on very young top growth.  Secondly when taking advice I am very particular, I have to see that the person giving advice has done what they are telling me to do and had success. 
I know this is advice but I think others would agree, that you don't go beyond your abilities.  Get comfortable with what you can do then move on to harder things. 
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Yenling on October 27, 2009, 07:04 PM
I live about 10 minutes away from George Muranaka, in fact him and his father are basically the one's that got me into Bonsai.  Very good people!  He is the only one that I have seen successfully airlayer JBP.  He writes about it in his blog which there is a link below.  He is also selling one of his airlayers on Ebay right now.  He sells them at the nursery too. 

muranakabonsainursery.blogspot.com

I was thinking about buying a couple of his airlayers to grow out and see what happens, although I don't know if there is much advantage in growing a small airlayering out compared to a seedling.  with a seedling you can wire movement, but I guess w/ an air layer you can grow it out using the clip and grow method. 

-Jeremiah
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on October 27, 2009, 07:27 PM
Secondly when taking advice I am very particular, I have to see that the person giving advice has done what they are telling me to do and had success. 
I know this is advice but I think others would agree, that you don't go beyond your abilities.  Get comfortable with what you can do then move on to harder things. 

Thanks for calling my advice into question :). 

Seriously, I let him know up front that I'd never done it and hadn't ever seen personally (off the interwebs) it done, but knew that it was possible, if extremely difficult.  It didn't seem to phase him and the possibility of a really nice shohin seemed to make it all seem worthwhile.

I disagree about going beyond your abilities though.  That could get a little philosophical and have nothing to do with airlayering a JBP though, so I'll leave that one alone.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 27, 2009, 10:12 PM
What Wayne just posted in the first small paragraph is true. At the time I first attempted mine Chris Johnston was attempting or had one in progress also. I believe his failed on him after seperation. I try most of the time to take small steps at trying things. But sometimes I feel I need to push myself. Yes I am just a low life noob in this hobby and I will never be the likes of those I have gotten to know online. Also sorry 99% of my trees are just plain **** to most. But at least I am trying and trying new things. Yes the pine looked good just the way it was but to me( and that's all that matters) it still can be whether or not the airlayer takes. George is a great guy and I like him. He's nice, polite and in a small way gives my noob *** just a little bit of respect as a person wanting to enjoy and grow in this hobby. Even if it is the way EVERYONE else does not like. I will not pursue this thread any longer. If it is erased I am fine with that. I will not go into detail my journey of doing an airlayer. I will just defer to Jeremiah and suggest everyone check out George's blog to learn the proper technique to airlayer a pine.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: kcpoole on October 28, 2009, 07:30 AM
Nothing hard about Airlayering JBP

Have taken Several and find them no more difficult than any other tree.
this is one of 4 I took off a tree in Jan 2008.
I put 4 layers on 2 trees ( 2 on each tree) mid spring of 2007. I took them all off in Jan 2008 ( Middle of our summer). and all survived and thrived. The tress were purchased after being ground grown so i do not how old they were but had maure bark at the time.
I had to repot them in the following winter and have just started to style the first ones of them.

My process it to strip the bark off in a ring about 1" wide, paint on a rooting hormone Gel. Wrap a pot around the trunk and fill with chopped Sphagnum moss. Keep Moist.
Watch for roots to appear and when ready take them off and pot up.

I would not hesistate doing any more if need

Ken


Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 28, 2009, 10:29 AM
KC,
That's about how I did mine as far as gettin em started.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on October 28, 2009, 10:58 AM
Here's a link to the posts Muranaka's made at his site about air layers:
http://muranakabonsainursery.blogspot.com/search?q=air+layer (http://muranakabonsainursery.blogspot.com/search?q=air+layer)

Its interesting that he and KC both seem to have used much younger wood than Steven.  I can only assume that older wood would have to take longer to set roots.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on October 28, 2009, 11:31 AM
In further searching on Muranaka's blog, the search linked above missed a few:
http://muranakabonsainursery.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html (http://muranakabonsainursery.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html)
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: John Kirby on October 28, 2009, 11:55 AM
On one of my visits to the Muranakas a few years ago, George and I talked about an article in Golden Statements from a number of years ago about a two year protocol to airlayer Japanese Black Pines from elongating candles instead of grafting. I had heard about the article from Ron Smith (Texas, now Arkansas?) who had been shown the article by Bill Hashimoto. George said that he had been interested in trying to airlayer, and when I visited with Frank Kroeker in 2007 he showed us a number of airlayers he was doing on Junipers and pines. It is good to see that he has come up with a 1 year technique that seems to be working (see his blog cited above). I have discussed this technique (the two year) with Jim Gremel who has done it successfully a number of times, but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend. Steve, the advantage of these over seedlings is you get a very thick trunk early with radial roots (if all goes well) and potentially very low branches- every where there was a needle could be a bud.

I personally have not tried to airlayer JBP, sticking with seedlings and seedling cuttings. I know a number of people who have, and like Ken's below I think they are dependent on good technique, good luck and picking the right aged subject- but I am sure that someone can go through Kinbon or Bonsai Today and find someone sucessfully airlayering and old JBP, I have seen the JWP articles, I just don't remember if I actually saw one on JBP. So Steve, I will disagree with my good friend Frank, and will suggest that you keep on trying, It may be just getting the cambium fully cleaned up, or the edge cut perfectly cleanly, take a look and see what might not have worked and try again. Good luck, I wouldn't call you a noob, just one of the guys.

John

 
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Yenling on October 28, 2009, 12:44 PM
but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend. Steve, the advantage of these over seedlings is you get a very thick trunk early with radial roots (if all goes well) and potentially very low branches- every where there was a needle could be a bud.

John

 

John
While you can't bend these trunks, could you not use the clip and grow method to put movement into the trunk?  What if you take a very short JBP airlayer and wire one of the shoots near the top at an angle.  Let this grow out and then you will have your first bend.  Would that work?   
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on October 28, 2009, 02:47 PM
I have discussed this technique (the two year) with Jim Gremel who has done it successfully a number of times, but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend.

One thing that could help is to start the layer at an angle so that the roots still flare out perfectly radially, but the trunk doesn't just jut straight out of the soil.

I question whether that would work as well as I'd like to think it would since the roots at the top of the angle may behave differently than the roots at the bottom since its often stressed that candles be cut straight across to avoid the resulting buds/needles/branches/growth to be uneven.  (My JBP physiology is a little weak in this area.)
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: John Kirby on October 28, 2009, 03:18 PM
You can, but then you have a large scar down low again. The Japanese have pretty much stopes using the large sacrifice branch method popular 20 or so years ago, on a pine with restricted growth, those wounds can take decades to heal. This is why you will often see the long escape branch at the top of the tree, two or three of these in succession can help you get a big tree with the scars on the back and hidden.

John
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on October 28, 2009, 04:01 PM
You can, but then you have a large scar down low again.

I'm not sure I follow.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bonsaikc on October 28, 2009, 05:18 PM
You can, but then you have a large scar down low again.

I'm not sure I follow.

I believe John was answering Yenling's question. Low sacrifice branches were used for years, and lots of them, but after decades these trees still tended to betray the method, giving them a man-made look.

Graydon from Florida has had success airl layering JBP. He not only scrapes the cambium, he kills it off with rubbing alcohol before putting his 3% rooting powder on it. I haven't generated enough fortitude to try it, but I do have the perfect subject for it, a tree that the top has to be chopped anyway!

Here's a link: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=935 (http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=935)

Chris
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: John Kirby on October 29, 2009, 10:48 AM
Wayne,
Healing big cuts on containerized JBP can be a decades long proposition. What is a big cut? Depends on how big your trunk is.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on January 13, 2010, 10:48 AM
I have discussed this technique (the two year) with Jim Gremel who has done it successfully a number of times, but Jim and I have the same concern- thick straight trunks that you can't bend.

One thing that could help is to start the layer at an angle so that the roots still flare out perfectly radially, but the trunk doesn't just jut straight out of the soil.

Would an angled layer work to counter the "thick straight trunks that can't bend"? (That is, cutting the trunk diagonally rather than horizontally at the layer site.)
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on January 14, 2010, 09:58 AM
Applying a "angled" cut for an airlayer would only result in a straight trunk that is angled to whatever degree you make the cuts. I have seen Georges airlayered jbp's. He's put a few on Ebay. I know, also, where he takes his airlayers from. He uses the very top of the extremely exstended leader that he eventually cuts off his pines once he feels they are ready for the next stage. Now the top is dense with needles and small "preemie" branches and a apex candle. My take on using this material is to get as close to that dense area as you can to apply the airlayer. After everything is successful and the airlayer is removed you would use the base of the airlayer as your base, nebari area for the tree. Select what "preemie" branches you want to keep and wire those. Then wire movement in what will become the trunk of the tree. Now my take on all this is is that all of this will need to grow out for some years to develop the tree. His airlayers are not material that you can spend 3-7 yrs on and make a finished shohin pine. But his airlayers do have the primary characteristics to develop one over more time if one chooses to do so. Now to some of you what I just said probably does not make a bit of sense. What I said I have mentally in my brain(yes I do have one LOL) of how to do all of this. And by no means am I an expert. This is just my philosophical take on this procedure. I know the jbp I have an airlayer on may never take being that it is on older wood. If it doesn't I can live with that I ruined a good tree and will be stuck with a "coyote ugly" pine.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on January 14, 2010, 10:21 AM
My idea was to add interest in the form of movement to the left or right (or front ...or back) starting at the soil.  You'd still be stuck with a trunk that's straight and unbendable but have a more interesting lower trunk.  The rest of the movement would be added w/ directional pruning.

I question whether it'd work as well as it does in my mind, but right now its the best I've got.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: garywood on January 14, 2010, 11:14 AM
Wayne, i agree that these layers are only a good starting point and the angle layer would yield a wider base and movement out of the ground. I don't currently use this method but I intend to do some this spring. 
Wood
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on January 14, 2010, 11:26 AM
but I intend to do some this spring. 

You're welcome :)
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on January 14, 2010, 11:52 AM
Yes, using a branch to continue the trunk and applying directional pruning to get shape would work.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Jerry Norbury on September 07, 2010, 05:14 PM
What happened to your airlayer  Steven?
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2010, 06:38 PM
Didn't take the 2nd time Jerry. John Kirby is going to help me with a technique of applying jbp seedlings to where I want the base to be on the old airlayer to get the results I'm looking for. The tree overall is doing quite well. It is even re-barking up on the old airlayer ring around the trunk. It is still very noticeable though. It was decandled back in june and wired. Been keeping a check to see if the wire needs to come off and re-wired.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 18, 2012, 03:34 PM
Wayne you remember this pine?
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 18, 2012, 10:30 PM
Here it is now. The pic showing close up of the trunk and 3 lowest branches I am thinking of removing those branches. Where the trunk bends to the left is a branch I will make the first branch. The pine kind of flat tops at the apex.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on October 18, 2012, 10:36 PM
Here it is thinned and the 3 lowest branches pruned back. I will use them as anchoring points to pull branches down. Afterwards I may use one or two as jins. The part of the trunk that had the airlayer  is slowly barking up.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Dirk on December 12, 2012, 02:11 PM
Steven,

Looks like a good tree to me!!
Good thing it came out well out of an experiment!

I see you still got it in its pondbasket.
Do you actually see the points of roots coming trough the mess?

Dirk
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on December 12, 2012, 03:12 PM
I hate the airlayer didn't work, but I still like it.  Nice work on it!
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on December 12, 2012, 08:02 PM
Dirk,
Only place I have seen roots coming out is the bottom. This tree is in need of a repot. Should've been done 2 yrs ago, coming up on 3 yrs, but unforeseen events has prevented me from doing so. If things go good next month then I can repot in spring.

Wayne,
All we could've done is try and we did. No harm no foul lol. I didn't get any buds popping after decandling. Course way late on a repot and being thrown over a fence hasn't helped it any. I have wired it some but not fully. I see a flat top in this one but I may just be off since all that has gone wrong for me and can't see the tree another way.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Don Dunn on December 18, 2012, 09:28 PM
Hello Every one
  I had purchased a JBP in a 5 gallon pot awhile back with out knowing what I was doing. I intended on trying to Bonsai it however  I noticed it's nodes are way to far apart. And it had lots of low branches at the base and not more for about a foot up. It has not been  trained at all for Bonsai. I learned something already about purchasing trees for Bonsai.  Now  I am thinking I will either try  to get my money back or possibly do some air layering to get some nice starts. It has about four limbs that if separated would  already have pretty good structure. Any other ideas with this bad purchase.
 If I air layer it how many of the limbs could I do at a time with out hurting the main tree to much.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: John Kirby on December 18, 2012, 09:41 PM
Just cut it down, it has potential to sprout all over and give you branches in places that you may want.

Sp how does that work, you buy a tree, you keep it around for a while, learn you didn't quite have as good a sense of what you need as you thought you did, then you take it back and expect your money back? I will have to think about that one for a while.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: nathanbs on December 18, 2012, 10:07 PM
Its impossible to tell from that one photo what's going on. Try taking some better photos. But as John said you can chop it and induce some back budding.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Adair M on December 18, 2012, 10:32 PM
John,

About taking trees back... At the workshop I gave on Sunday, one guy brought in a JWP pine he had bought a year or so ago from the shop, Plant City Bonsai.  My workshop was geared primarily towards JBP, but I covered the basics of all pine care, too.  Anyway, this guys JWP, a graft, naturally, had a whirl of heavy branches right about 1 inch above the graft, which was very low,almost at the soil line.  I encouraged him to pick one of those and we could pull it up to make a twin trunk, and we would start removing the others.  He didn't like that idea.

Anyway, as the workshop went on, he became more and more disenchanted with his tree.  Especially after he took a look at some of my JBPs I brought in.  He ended up trading the JWP back in for a JBP.

I had about a dozen folk at my workshop.  At the beginning, I asked them if they liked JBP or JWP better.  Almost all said JWP.  I asked why.  "The needles are shorter."  So I said, if I could show you two JBP I've had in training for two years with shorter needles than your JWP, would you like them better?  They said, yes, but you can't do it.

Then I pulled out two JBP with 1 inch needles.

I had their attention after that.

Except for one guy who insisted that pretty much everything I was saying was wrong.  He said he was a student of Warren Hill, and he was sticking to his methods.

Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Chrisl on December 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
LOL Adair...there's always ONE in a workshop who...well, you know hehe

Sounds like you had a good workshop!  Congrats!
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Don Dunn on December 20, 2012, 12:23 AM
Thank you guys for the help. I put on another picture I had showing the bottom of the trunk.  Cutting it back is what my first instinct was but I was still a little nervous about doing such a drastic move to a tree. I thought I would cut it to the first set of branches about 1 foot up from the soil. Should I wait until spring or just get it done now?  I need to pull a tone more needles also but I don't want to over stress the poor tree with to much work at one time. I asked some one down at the club if I should remove the candles at this point and they suggested I wait until spring.
I watched one of Ryan Neil's demonstrations on JBP's and he said the first thing you should do when you first get a JBP is to remove all the candles and pluck the needles on the whole tree to a uniform consistency all over the tree. So I am a little confused about the candles.
I wasn't sure how much if any back budding I would get on a JBP so I am relieved about that.  A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.  So, thank you for sharing with me a bit of your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Adair M on December 20, 2012, 09:50 AM
Needle pulling is primarily a "refinement" technique.  Your tree needs to GROW.  To develop a heavy trunk.  True, you might chop the trunk,and let a new leader take over to put in some movement.  But this tree does not need to have any needles pulled.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bwaynef on December 20, 2012, 10:17 AM
I watched one of Ryan Neil's demonstrations on JBP's and he said the first thing you should do when you first get a JBP is to remove all the candles and pluck the needles on the whole tree to a uniform consistency all over the tree.

There is an appropriate season for this work, but I agree with others here who've mentioned that this tree needs growth (after chopping it back).  Go ahead and cut it back and start developing sections of the trunk.  Maintain low branching unless and until you are CERTAIN that you won't need it (AND that it is about to cause a problem!).  Chopping it (as drastically as it needs to be chopped) will almost certainly induce backbudding throughout what is left of the tree.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on December 21, 2012, 10:25 PM
Nothing like threadjacking LOL. Laugh people :} Seriously, if one of my threads helps someone in their journey of bonsai I'm all for it. I'm with everyone here on advice. Cut it back when time, feed well, get in a good open mix. Those were not listed in order so please don't follow them in order. If my "Pinezilla" thread is still on this site that would give an idea of cutting back hard to induce budding. But also it tells what not to do...push the tree too much.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Don Dunn on December 22, 2012, 12:30 AM
Steven
 I looked for the Pinezilla article but it did not turn up on a search, I'll take the help any way I can get it.
Thank You
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Steven on December 22, 2012, 01:20 AM
No I didn't ever post it here. I think I did somewhere else and thought it was here. Brain dead lol. I'm sorry you did a search.
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: Don Dunn on December 22, 2012, 03:09 AM
No problem Steve , We don't sweat the small things besides what else am I going to do on a rainy day before Christmas. And at least the world did not end today.
Merry Christmas every one :)
Title: Re: JBP airlayer
Post by: bigDave on December 22, 2012, 11:28 PM
Quote
don't sweat the small things besides what else am I going to do on a rainy day before Christmas.

Work on bonsai perhaps  ?
 ;D