Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Evergreen Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Jay tupelo on November 15, 2012, 08:18 PM

Title: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 15, 2012, 08:18 PM
Hey guys I decandled my JBP in July but it really still haven't had new buds should I be worried its a older tree. Feed well and very green all over but this year it did not respond to decandling method for some reason will it die
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: John Kirby on November 15, 2012, 10:38 PM
Should be fine, you just lose a year of development. When was it repotted last? Any pictures?
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 10:34 AM
Thanks for the reply I haven't repot yet. I've had it going on 2 seasons I was planing on repot in 3rd season.  I'll try to post a picture by this evening
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 11:28 AM
Back
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Sorry don't know why it's back wards
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 11:30 AM
Better shoot of decandle
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 17, 2012, 12:28 PM
Where are you located?
How's the soil?
How much/often did you water/fertilize in spring?
How much/often did you water/fertilize after decandle?
What is your level of experience with JBP?

With a new tree I usually try to repot as soon as possible (first spring in possession).  This give me a chance to look at the roots, correct any flaws, and remove the inevitably bad soil.

For a tree of this size July might have been a little late, depending on what you mean by "South".

Fertilize the crap out of it now.  Do some fall cleanup.  Repot (into good soil) in spring.  Fertilize the crap out of it starting shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 01:49 PM
Thank you . My experience with black pine is okay i guess, I want to repot it but I'm worried that its stressed out right now. The other black pine that I got from nursery stock and have been working on for 3 years has responded very well to decandle method but maybe it's because I reported into a "boon" mix . You see I wasn't afraid of missing around with the tree that I basically have been developing I guess I'm kinda scared of repot the old black pine fear of losing it but the same is true if I don't repot. I have boon videos and I plan on repot, do you have any suggestions
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 01:55 PM
Located in tupelo ms  northern ms this is a picture of the black pine I've been playing around with a few years its responding very well it's the older speciemin that I have concerns over. Don't know if I should repot I January or wait tell 2014  ??? ???
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 17, 2012, 02:06 PM
Sorry I forgot to answer your questions. I made my own fertilizer balls and stared with two during March and kept adding 2 more every2 weeks intell the whole tree was covered in fertilizer balls and watered good and I decandled the tree according to boons video I my part of the country at end of June took all of the cakes off . In August I put two cakes back on and last week I decided to take them of because it was not responding yet to decandling so that's were I'm at.      The picture is of the nursery black pine before I reported it , it has responded very well to decandling may be because the other tree is old I don't know any suggestions thank you for helping I don't every thing but I heard some were that if you ask you will receive  ;)
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Adair M on November 17, 2012, 05:13 PM
It's hard to tell from your photos, but when you decandled, did you cut all the candle off, or did you leave some new (this year)needles?  It looks like you may have left some 2012 needles. 

Looking at your foliage, can you tell if the tree still has 2010 needles?  (Two year old needles?) 

It looks very full.  You might consider removing the very oldest needles (2010) so that sunlight can get into the interior.  If you decandled all the 2012 candles, you don't want to pull any 2011 needles, it needs those for energy.

2012 was a strange year for JBP.  I had one JBP that did not produce any spring candles!  It finally pushed candles after I decandled my other pines in early July.  So, it waited until late July to push candles.  Needless to say, I did not decandle it.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: John Kirby on November 17, 2012, 07:48 PM
Nice tree. It looks stressed, fine needles. So, to destress, you will need to repot. I know, everyone says don't repot when dressed, but with a tree that has root issues, then repotting is a must- especially with JBP. The tree will certainly start growing by march, repot in late February, early March and get it growing. For JBP to be strong they need to be growing very well. Might be worth heading up and seeing Matsu when he does his repotting workshop (the kid will be almost a year old and not so much of a novelty by then....).

Good luck,
John
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 18, 2012, 09:50 PM
When would this repot class be ?
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Chrisl on November 19, 2012, 10:56 AM
Nice tree. It looks stressed, fine needles. So, to destress, you will need to repot. I know, everyone says don't repot when dressed, but with a tree that has root issues, then repotting is a must- especially with JBP. The tree will certainly start growing by march, repot in late February, early March and get it growing. For JBP to be strong they need to be growing very well. Might be worth heading up and seeing Matsu when he does his repotting workshop (the kid will be almost a year old and not so much of a novelty by then....).

Good luck,
John

John, you've got more experience with repotting.  It's seldom discussed, but when do you pot a tree from a training box/pot to a initial deeper bonsai pot?  After you have the roots, trunk and branches the desired location and thickness?  Would it benefit Jay to put this back into a trainer box to regain the health?

Nice tree Jay btw!
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 19, 2012, 05:45 PM
I have a question for Matsu bonsai lets say my tree does have a root problum? should i just wait to repot. you see im worried if there is a root problum i do not want to fertilize the roots and harming them even more. After  seeing the soil about 1 inch  down the pot every thing is black looking im thinking there is a lot of organic soil in this pot and it needs a more inorganic mix. which makes alot of sense when you asked how the soil was and what kind it was after ferther looking its very organic looking (black). I think the best thing to do for the health of the tree is wait for  feduary and repot into a more draing mix and try to get the health of the tree back before i try any refinment. Now this is my Question well i come across any problums when changeing to an inorganic mix sense the tree looks to be in a organic mix. should i repot half at a time let me know thanks . jay
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 19, 2012, 06:10 PM
If it were mine I would repot in late February or early March into good soil.  Bare-root the front half if needed.  Really not going to know what's in there until you're in there.

I would probably do some fall cleanup now.  Remove 2 year old needles.  Refresh the top ~inch of soil.

May I ask from where you acquired the tree?  It looks like it was most likely imported.  The pot looks like a reproduction pot that Brussel's sells, and their soil is awful.  It could be that since importation it wasn't treated properly for optimum root growth (ex: roots trimmed flush, poor soil, not enough fertilizer, etc) and it only had enough reserves to push buds last year.  Get it into good soil and growing well next year.

Healthy roots make for healthy JBP, usually.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 19, 2012, 07:07 PM
what can i say you hit it on a nail. Yes its an import yes the soil is bad and yes ill take your advise and repot, yes its from brussels but lets make it live a few more years for my enjoyment thanks more comments welcomed
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: John Kirby on November 19, 2012, 08:26 PM
It is a nice tree, you can fix it pretty easily. If Matsu isn't doing workshops, be sure to look at Boon's repotting video, maybe look up Gary Woods, a really good Bonsai guy.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 19, 2012, 08:55 PM
Will probably be first and/or second weekend in March.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 19, 2012, 11:16 PM
I'll try to repot in boon mix by fed hopfully all goes well wish me luck
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: coh on November 20, 2012, 11:09 AM
May I ask from where you acquired the tree?  It looks like it was most likely imported.  The pot looks like a reproduction pot that Brussel's sells, and their soil is awful. 

Do you know what components they use in their soil? Is it like the stuff in the "bad soil = bad roots" thread started by boon?

Chris
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Chrisl on November 20, 2012, 11:37 AM
Chris, the JBP I got also from Brussels is also in pretty organic soil.  Grew extr. well this yr despite having wet feet too much despite holes drilled in the sides and keeping it tilted.  I'd love to leave it in the 5g container as I just did it's first major styling this yr. and would like to keep the momentum forward.  So I have to decide to repot this spring, or just use rebar and fill in aggregate 2x/yr and hope I get it draining better.  

Boy Matsu, you really know your sources! ;))
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 20, 2012, 12:04 PM
Brussel's soil is great for them, in that it retains a ton of water, and fertilizer, and limits their water bill, limits the time spent watering, payment for someone to hand water, or infrastructure to automate watering.

My biggest gripe is that they use the same soil on their high dollar trees (which have gotten even higher and harder to come by in recent years). These trees are then purchased by the unsuspecting and uneducated. I say uneducated as I feel that the vast majority of clubs do their members a disservice by not teaching good curriculum, whether for lack of knowledge, lack of effort, or good old American "I know better than you". 

Before I started studying with Boon our clubs resident line expert advocated using electric hedge trimmers on pines. In recent years he has proclaimed pines won't grow in or area.  Could be that his soil sucks. Could be that he's still working out of a book from the '70s.

/rant

Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on November 20, 2012, 07:04 PM
Hey guys the sad thing is I've had the tree for going on the 2nd year and I have watered and fert heavy when needed during growing season. Hope that when I change to boon mix this feb it's notsobad wish me luck ill keep you informed
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Chrisl on November 20, 2012, 07:47 PM
Good Luck Jay.  It's a great looking tree!

Matsu, Thanks for the rant.  That makes more sense now knowing that.  I'll get it in some good soil next spring. 
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Dirk on December 12, 2012, 01:44 PM
or good old American "I know better than you". 

John,

You are mistaken here: It's Dutch!

Jay,

I wish you best of luck. Its looks like a good tree. Can't be to carefull and these guys really know what they are talking about!

Dirk
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: boon on December 31, 2012, 12:43 PM
If it were mine I would repot in late February or early March into good soil.  Bare-root the front half if needed.  Really not going to know what's in there until you're in there.

I would probably do some fall cleanup now.  Remove 2 year old needles.  Refresh the top ~inch of soil.

May I ask from where you acquired the tree?  It looks like it was most likely imported.  The pot looks like a reproduction pot that Brussel's sells, and their soil is awful.  It could be that since importation it wasn't treated properly for optimum root growth (ex: roots trimmed flush, poor soil, not enough fertilizer, etc) and it only had enough reserves to push buds last year.  Get it into good soil and growing well next year.

Healthy roots make for healthy JBP, usually.

i recommend to do as John said.  my dvd is for the tree that is already in good soil.  when you run into bad soil you need to bare root half and get it into a new soil.  do not decandle the year you do first half bare root.  it is safer to let the tree grow one year without decandle.  2 years later remove the other half of the old soil.  this technique has saved a lot of bonsai.  including the oldest black pine in the US.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Chrisl on December 31, 2012, 04:09 PM
That's what John K. also told me the same Boon. 

Oldest JBP in US is that huge old, 400?yrs, BP that was given to US for exhibition in early 1900s?  I saw a picture of that the other day in an old Bonsai Today.  If not the same tree, this one WAS impressive!
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: boon on December 31, 2012, 04:27 PM
That's what John K. also told me the same Boon.  

Oldest JBP in US is that huge old, 400?yrs, BP that was given to US for exhibition in early 1900s?  I saw a picture of that the other day in an old Bonsai Today.  If not the same tree, this one WAS impressive!

I wrote the article on wiring and restyled that jbp. It is now at golden state bonsai collection north in Oakland. I heard that it came in in 1916. For pan pacific exhibition in San Francisco.

I did not published the pic after it had problem. and I had to repot it in Feb 1999.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on January 05, 2013, 09:58 AM
thank you, the plan is to repot half and not touch the other half. so the end product will be half boon mix and the other the same soil. hopfuly that will work for now. any suggestions welcomed
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Don Blackmond on January 05, 2013, 10:03 AM
thank you, the plan is to repot half and not touch the other half. so the end product will be half boon mix and the other the same soil. hopfuly that will work for now. any suggestions welcomed

bare root half and clean up the other half
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on January 05, 2013, 10:06 AM
when you mean clean up the other half do you mean the top soil 1-2 inches with new non organic mix thanks
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Chrisl on January 05, 2013, 11:16 AM
Jay, John gave me specific JBP potting instructions on a thread called emergency repot JBP, or something like that.   Rel. new thread. 

Boon, I missed Thanking you for the info on that pine.  Very impressive! ;)
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Don Blackmond on January 05, 2013, 08:27 PM
when you mean clean up the other half do you mean the top soil 1-2 inches with new non organic mix thanks

yes, I would remove loose old soil and debris but not do root work on that half.  The extent of what you do also depends on what you find when you get it out of the pot.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Dirk on January 06, 2013, 04:26 PM
Don,

What do you do when long roots are circling on the bottom of the pot? I seems to me you can't restrict to one side only?
How do you solve this?

Dirk
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: John Kirby on January 06, 2013, 11:04 PM
You cut them off. The point is to leave a portion of the roots, about 1/2 still covered in soil. The 1/2 you don't bare root is equivalent to about 20% of the root mass. Just because you don't bareroot it, doesn't mean you don't work the roots.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Dirk on January 07, 2013, 12:06 AM
John,
Does barerooting allways mean washing out the roots with water, or is there another way to get all the old soil out?
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Brian Van Fleet on January 07, 2013, 09:09 AM
when you mean clean up the other half do you mean the top soil 1-2 inches with new non organic mix thanks

Jay, if you'll be anywhere near Birmingham, I'll be happy to assist with repotting this tree.  I repot JBP early/mid-march here.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Don Blackmond on January 07, 2013, 11:29 AM
on the portion you bareroot, use tools or whatever you want to use and clean out the old soil.  make sure you get to the core of the root mass and clean out the clay/sand/muck etc.  rinse thoroughly to wash clean.

on the portion you don't bareroot, trim the encircling roots back and clean off loose soil and debris.  the idea is to leave a good portion of that 1/2 rootball intact and undisturbed.  but, you should fix problems you see.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on January 07, 2013, 12:13 PM
I don't recommend washing. You'll just wash away the beneficial fungus needed especially by JBP.
Title: Re: Decandle what if?
Post by: Jay tupelo on January 09, 2013, 10:37 PM
thanks brain ill keep that in mind. ill be honest im in nursing school and ill be lucky to sqeeze in time for this project. ill more than likely have to take on this task on my own but i just want to take everyone in this forum for all the helpfull information, not everyone has the time and RESOURES... so thanks for all the help guys ..  back to studying  :-[