Bonsai Study Group Forum

General Category => Evergreen Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Chrisl on March 16, 2012, 10:36 AM

Title: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 16, 2012, 10:36 AM
I have a JRP with just a little reverse taper the first 2 " of the trunk.  Someone at out last club meeting someone said that you can use an exacto knife and make multiple 360 degree, vertical cuts into the bark on the skinny part of the reverse taper.  And when it heals, the bark has thickened and no scarring since the cut was so thin.
Anyone know or hear about this?  Oh, he also said not to use the hammer technique on pines...which I hadn't heard before??

The other fix I heard was from someone who learned this from Kathy Shaner who carves ovals into the skinny part of the reverse taper and when it callouses over, no more rev. taper.  I'd much not rather have two scars on the lower trunk.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: kostas on March 16, 2012, 01:29 PM
hi i think you must put wire 360 at the spring until strangle the bark and the winter (after you have take out the wire) take a very sharp knife and do horizontal cuts or diagonal on the top of wire scar.somethink like this in foto.one other tecknik i now its to carve some small halls under the problem spot 10-20 Day's before the dormand period sho the tree blinding for that time weakening the spot under the problem and the aped part it get fut er.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 16, 2012, 02:58 PM
What's the reasoning for the needed wire?  Not quite sure I'm following
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: kostas on March 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
What's the reasoning for the needed wire?  Not quite sure I'm following
to stop the juice at a specific point  so the snicks at the autumn open wider.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 16, 2012, 11:47 PM
Those techniques do not work. They just left bad callas wound on the trunk.  The older it gets, the worse it looks.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Owen Reich on March 17, 2012, 02:27 AM
Boon, what would you reccomend?  Also, do you think grafting a branch at the inverse taper point and allowing to grow freely for a while would work?

Thanks,
Owen
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: kostas on March 17, 2012, 05:31 AM
Those techniques do not work. They just left bad callas wound on the trunk.  The older it gets, the worse it looks.

hi, you have tried them and you have this effects, on pine?
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 17, 2012, 08:32 AM
Kostas and Owen,
No I have not tried it myself.  I have seen and work on a lot of black pine.  I do not think it is fixable. It might help to graft a small branch on the side where it ha reverse taper and let it run for a few years.  Or plant a second tree and third trees on the side. Make it a clump style.
The best way to do is to grow them from seed. The amount of time and effort to fix bad tree will end up about the same time or less to grow a new one from seed. The result will be much better.  Follow the article in Bonsai today #20.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: kostas on March 17, 2012, 02:21 PM
Kostas and Owen,
No I have not tried it myself.  I have seen and work on a lot of black pine.  I do not think it is fixable. It might help to graft a small branch on the side where it ha reverse taper and let it run for a few years.  Or plant a second tree and third trees on the side. Make it a clump style.
The best way to do is to grow them from seed. The amount of time and effort to fix bad tree will end up about the same time or less to grow a new one from seed. The result will be much better.  Follow the article in Bonsai today #20.
you have a point ;D (that tecknick they use to some nursery's to create cork bark at a short period 3-4 years in pines but also can use it to thickening some parts of the trunk the only deference's is that for cork bark you left the wire inside the bark.)
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Owen Reich on March 17, 2012, 08:46 PM
Boon, I agree about the amount of time needed to fix a tree versus making a good one from the start.  My concern is for customers who have a pine that they really like and want to "save" from going to the raffle table  ;D.  Additional trees are also a good option.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 18, 2012, 07:54 AM
Agree Owen.  Or that we have trees that are pretty nice, but with a little reverse taper, are the ones we can afford lol
Worst possibility is the one I mentioned in my  first post, ' Kathy Shaner who carves ovals into the skinny part of the reverse taper and when it callouses over, no more rev. taper.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Adair M on March 18, 2012, 09:36 PM
I personally dislike any tree that has the spiral cut in wire.

Like the one pictured below.  I don't own this tree, but it's offered for sale on-line.

And for some reason, they do this to the JWP grafts, too.  I really don't get that.  The JBP rootstock will grow much faster than the JWP scion anyway.  Why do they do that?  (I guess so the trunk will fatten that much faster... which means it's saleable faster.  But, those trees will never be "great" trees.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: kostas on March 19, 2012, 12:27 PM
I personally dislike any tree that has the spiral cut in wire.

Like the one pictured below.  I don't own this tree, but it's offered for sale on-line.

And for some reason, they do this to the JWP grafts, too.  I really don't get that.  The JBP rootstock will grow much faster than the JWP scion anyway.  Why do they do that?  (I guess so the trunk will fatten that much faster... which means it's saleable faster.  But, those trees will never be "great" trees.
i think you are wrong because at some point the bark its unaided. if you notice my image above the horizontal lines its the wire that its inside the tree, and if the bark goes one, you cant tell if some great trees its fixed with that method if you cant see the wounts.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 20, 2012, 01:14 AM
Boon, I agree about the amount of time needed to fix a tree versus making a good one from the start.  My concern is for customers who have a pine that they really like and want to "save" from going to the raffle table  ;D.  Additional trees are also a good option.

Owen,
I am always direct and honest about how i feel about the trees.  People in the class who want to improve their collection usually understand what i told them.  This is what i try to educate my students what is good material and what is not.  if it is fixable, we will.  some problem is too much trouble and take too long too fix.

Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 20, 2012, 01:17 AM
Agree Owen.  Or that we have trees that are pretty nice, but with a little reverse taper, are the ones we can afford lol
Worst possibility is the one I mentioned in my  first post, ' Kathy Shaner who carves ovals into the skinny part of the reverse taper and when it callouses over, no more rev. taper.

it would be nice to see some result.  pictures would be nice.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 20, 2012, 10:09 AM
I'm hoping to get some Boon.  Brian Van Fleet tried this with a tree with Kathy I think about 1-2yrs ago.  He hasn't seen it afterwards, but has plans to see the tree coming up.  He told me he'd shoot me a pic when that happens and I'll gladly share it here with the group.
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 21, 2012, 07:46 AM
here are some pictures i took from my student's trees   the first one is grown from seed.  grown in the pot the first 2 years and then in the ground for 3 years
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 21, 2012, 07:50 AM
here is the pictures before we repot into anderson pot.

if you do it correctly, it will not take that long to develop nice nebari and nice trunk.  then you can have fun developing branches.  buds are there to work on.  or graft new ones where ever you want
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 21, 2012, 08:37 AM
Very nice Boon!  But I'm not too keen on the scar from the sacrificial branch that was left on to thicken trunk.  I know it's the quickest way, but it'd be much better w/out the scar imo.  Certainly not bad at all for 5 yrs though!
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: boon on March 21, 2012, 10:57 PM
Very nice Boon!  But I'm not too keen on the scar from the sacrificial branch that was left on to thicken trunk.  I know it's the quickest way, but it'd be much better w/out the scar imo.  Certainly not bad at all for 5 yrs though!

thanks,  the scar will be treated next year after the tree get established in the new pot.  we will not use that side for the front.  the scar will be on the side or the back of the tree.  we have not pick the front yet.  the tree this young, the scar is not big, it will not take long to heal it.
it is good to hear you like trees without scar.  it would be nice for other members to see bonsai without scar.  can you please post some of your trees that has no scar? 
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 22, 2012, 11:49 AM
Oh, that's good Boon, I thought that scar was going to be the front ;)

The trees I have right now that don't have any scars are the seedlings I just planted this spring and will be using a clip and grow method to prevent scarring.  The others are my collected Ponderosa Pines.  The rest of my trees I began from nursery plants so they all have scars, or field grown trees that have been chopped so far, but still will have small scars when I cut off the unneeded branches.

So my end goal is to have trees with no scars and just be prepared for these to take a long time to develop.  Looking out long term Boon, I hope to have a few Tridents, Ch. Elms, JM's, Shimpakus and Quinces with no scars in 5-10 yrs.  But it's something that I want to learn how to do and I'm just going to have to be patient and see if I can be successful...

I recently here mentioned an article from Bonsai Today, about developing JBP's trunks quickly using sacrificial branches.  Then John K. mentioned the scars, and I thought to myself that's not what I want in my collection in the end.  So I'm not trying that technique at all.  Like I think John mentioned, there's no quick route to a great bonsai. 
Title: Re: Anyone use this technique to fix reverse taper on JRP?
Post by: Chrisl on March 26, 2012, 10:03 AM
Morning guys.  I had my bonsai class this last sat. and I was talking to another member about my JRP that I brought in to work on.  (Almost entirely bud selection and removal as it's just packed with way too many buds)  Anyway, I mentioned I liked this tree a lot, but had the little reverser taper.  This guy, way more experienced than I, said too the hammer technique didn't work on a JBP, after 2 yrs of trying, with also just a little reverse taper.  He said that over time, he kept potting the pine in a shallower pot till he got it to fit in about a 2" deep pot.  It stayed in the pot for I think 2 yrs. and that now the reverse taper is gone, but still not thicker than the trunk above it yet.  So he repotted last week in the same container and believes the base will continue to thicken up along with the nicely developing nebari. 

George Muranaka told me to hold off repotting for at least a yr.  It's in a 5" bulb nursery pot now so when the time comes, I'll pot it in a 4" deep pot.  This is going to take awhile and I'm in no rush as the tree already needs enough work done to it already.  And I'll see if it actually works.  I'm happy to hear this "Might" work, better than depending on the hammer which some feel works, others don't, and a much better solution than carving scars to mask the rev. taper.  Plus, this technique sounds logical at the very least ;)