Bonsai Study Group Forum

Species Specific => North American Juniper Bonsai Discussion => Topic started by: Yenling on November 04, 2009, 11:29 AM

Title: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Yenling on November 04, 2009, 11:29 AM
Specifically I'm wondering about this questions in regards to collected N. American Junipers

I have heard a lot of people tell me to mist newly collected trees, esp if they have weak root systems.  I'm really wondering how much actual benefit there is in doing this? How much water are these Junipers able to take in through their foliage?  

Also, how often should you mist more established trees?  Are there any other benefits to misting?  I currently just use a regular old spray bottle, will this work just as good as a mister?   

Thank you,    
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: John Kirby on November 04, 2009, 12:28 PM
It is not the water they take in, it is the reduction in rate of loss.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Yenling on November 04, 2009, 01:32 PM
Oh interesting. Does Boon regularly mist his established trees?

John-
Congratulations on Graduating and finishing Boon's Intensive's.  IMO that's an amazing accomplishment and very respectable.  IMO that the best certification you can get in the U.S.  That western juniper you guys bent and finished styling looks great!
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 04, 2009, 01:43 PM
John-
Congratulations on Graduating and finishing Boon's Intensive's.  IMO that's an amazing accomplishment and very respectable.  IMO that the best certification you can get in the U.S.  That western juniper you guys bent and finished styling looks great!

Wrong John, but thanks.  ;)

(I'm assuming you meant me, since Kirby graduated some time ago)
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Yenling on November 04, 2009, 03:03 PM
Whoops, yes well congratulations to both of you!

do you mist your junipers?
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 04, 2009, 03:16 PM
You'll notice the newly collected material at Boon's is mostly in the shade and looks to get hit with the hose fairly often.

Shhh, don't tell anyone, here's my setup:

http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/heartkit.php (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/heartkit.php)
http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/btimers.php#TDIGHOSE (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/btimers.php#TDIGHOSE)
http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/sprayer.php (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/sprayer.php) (Black Mini Jet, 180 Degree)

About 4 sprayers per 8 foot bench work great.  Set on the timer 2 or 3 times a day for about a minute during the growing season works great for me.  I work too far from home to come home and hand water during the day, so this keeps everything pretty well watered.  I'll hand water in the morning and/or afternoon those that look like they need it. 

Using the valve stakes:
http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/stakes.php#SV (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/stakes.php#SV)
I can increase or decrease the water per bench, etc.  These particular sprayers put out a pretty fine mist that my trees seem to enjoy.

Ask Peter about his setup.  He was talking about it last week.  Sounds pretty neat, if you have bad water that is.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: John Kirby on November 04, 2009, 05:35 PM
Yeah, what he said. I find that putting up a wind break (5'high plastic) and shade cloth keeps the moisture up high enough to avoid drying out. This also works for trees that have been worked really, really hard in the summer or just grafted.....

John
(I gradurbated a while back, still go out regularly for the abuse and good company.....)
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on November 04, 2009, 06:16 PM
(I gradurbated a while back, still go out regularly for the abuse and good company.....)

You enjoy the abuse.   ;D
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: akeppler on November 04, 2009, 07:04 PM
The california juniper is a very adaptable plant. having experience collecting them I can speak a little about misting. Freshly dug trees need daily misting sometimes as much as possible during the day for the first few months.

In the desert it's a wonder these plants do not die but seem to thrive. Why is that? Rain comes maybe a few months a year and that can be as little a two inches per year. Way too small amount to keep a plant alive that can be as large as a house. While these plants can grow root systems hundreds of yards from the plant, they do a poor job of growing downward to find water. The plant has adapted too getting it's water during these dry times thru its leaves. while the desert is hot by day it can be very cold at night, even in the summer time. With no vast acres of blacktop to absorb energy like a city, the barron desert will cool down very fast.

One thing the desert does have is condensation. The one thing that keeps many plants alive in the desert. flutes on barrel cactus is not there because it looks pretty, it's there because as the condensation drips down the barrel shaped furrows directs the water right down to the bottom of the plant and near it's roots. Pretty ingenous.

During periods of rain and continual water(as in bonsai) the plant will revert back to fullfilling it's watering needs thru the roots like any other plant. This may be why these plants do so well in captivity and in pots. They like water! After its grown a substantial amount of new roots the plant does not need the misting anymore. I have never misted any of mine for over 7 years since they were dug.

Al
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: al345900 on May 20, 2012, 11:04 PM
Matsu,

       Do you have pictures of your watering system, how you attach the stakes to the bench,

       Thank you

        Jorge
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Chrisl on May 21, 2012, 12:35 PM
You'll notice the newly collected material at Boon's is mostly in the shade and looks to get hit with the hose fairly often.

Shhh, don't tell anyone, here's my setup:

http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/heartkit.php (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/heartkit.php)
http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/btimers.php#TDIGHOSE (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/btimers.php#TDIGHOSE)
http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/sprayer.php (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/sprayer.php) (Black Mini Jet, 180 Degree)

About 4 sprayers per 8 foot bench work great.  Set on the timer 2 or 3 times a day for about a minute during the growing season works great for me.  I work too far from home to come home and hand water during the day, so this keeps everything pretty well watered.  I'll hand water in the morning and/or afternoon those that look like they need it.  

Using the valve stakes:
http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/stakes.php#SV (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/stakes.php#SV)
I can increase or decrease the water per bench, etc.  These particular sprayers put out a pretty fine mist that my trees seem to enjoy.

Ask Peter about his setup.  He was talking about it last week.  Sounds pretty neat, if you have bad water that is.

Nice setup Matsu!  Do you know how long Boon keeps his recently collected trees in the shade with misting?  And I know that the local enviroment makes a big difference in how long.  The bay area is dry/not a lot of rain, but has the fog, whereas Al lives in an area that I'm not surprised he has to mist for a long time given the dryness and lack of rain.

Like Jorge asked, where do you place the stakes for the misters?  It says it mists 3', so putting the stakes in the pots doesn't seem like it'd work.  Either way, I've been thinking of adding a drip system to water when Im not home.  It got up to 90 yesterday here and I had to water twice for trees in bonsai pots.   Just lucky so far I've been home to do this on the few hot days we've had so far.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: MatsuBonsai on May 21, 2012, 07:17 PM
I'll try to get pictures tomorrow, it's too rainy/muggy right now.

Basically I just drilled through a wing of the valve stakes (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/stakes.php#SV) and screwed them into the side of the bench.

You can see an old picture here (http://bonsaistudygroup.com/general-discussion/another-hot-week/msg6554/#msg6554).
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: al345900 on May 21, 2012, 10:36 PM
Hi Matsu,

    Thank you for the information, I looked at the old picture and is pretty self explanatory,

     I will do a similar setup, I started using Boon's mix this year and it dries very fast,

      See you in Rochester or Denver,

      Jorge
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Chrisl on May 22, 2012, 11:07 AM
Smart idea Matsu!  Thanks!
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Joshua Hanzman on April 14, 2014, 11:50 AM
Now I know I have not been in the game long but I realize already that misting can be the difference between life and death for a newly collected tree, especially a juniper (please vets correct me if I'm wrong). It seems to me to have something to do with an evolutionary adaptation that is a big part of the reason junipers (conifers in general?) can survive in conditions most other trees cannot. Junipers, if their root system is not pulling up enough water to sustain the tree, will pull in water from the foliage and supply the tree this way until the root system catches up and can support it. So, if this is true, then when newly collected, a juniper may not have enough roots to live and without regular misting, will dry out and die. With regular misting however, the juniper will obtain the water it needs (that the roots aren't providing) from its foliage, and it will need this misting until it builds a root system large enough to support the tree without foliage watering. Imho, this is why Masahiko Kimura, in the magician 1, in the chapter titled the resurrection, was able to keep a juniper alive without any roots at all, because he fed the foliage the water it needed while the tree built a new root system, I believe without misting, this tree would have surely died...

Again, this is just musings on my part, please correct me if I'm wrong, or tell me if I'm right lol
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: base797 on April 14, 2014, 12:41 PM
From my personal experience, and having success with virtually every RMJ I have collected (communis are a different story), I found that, if you are going to hand mist, it might as well have fertilizer in it. Foliar feeding is what I have found to be the most beneficial part of aftercare. That coupled  with wind protection and good sun seems to be very successful on all collected conifers.

 Along with the reduction of transpiration, applying food directly to the "factories" may also help in a more subtle way. When collected, a tree may lose some/most of the mycorrhizae that aids in the plants ability to utilize nutrients. So, the foliar fertilization might bypass that need in the short term. That being said, I also inoculate and add mycorrhizae by dusting the roots when potting up AND at the time of repotting out of the grow box into a bonsai pot.

Hope that helps.

Patrik
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: base797 on April 14, 2014, 12:52 PM
Here's one from my garden that had a rather small rootball. Sorry no pic from time of collection. Too big to move, so it got full sun and protection from wind when needed.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Sorce on April 14, 2014, 10:06 PM
Watch the documentary on Redwoods on Netflix.

It talks about how they suck moisture from the air.

I beleive it was more than 50% of their moisture gained this way, but its been a while.

It makes good sense though that a Juniper could survive this way.

Digging up old posts! I like it! ;)
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Lordy on July 14, 2014, 07:36 PM
Watch the documentary on Redwoods on Netflix.

It talks about how they suck moisture from the air.

I beleive it was more than 50% of their moisture gained this way, but its been a while.

It makes good sense though that a Juniper could survive this way.

Digging up old posts! I like it! ;)
I thought those redwoods are the ones that are so tall that the mechanical system a tree uses to raise water within the tree isnt strong enough to overcome gravity, so they get the moisture for the canopy from fog.  I'd consider that more of a evolutionary method of sustenance than a short-term choice by the newly collected tree. 
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Sorce on July 15, 2014, 06:22 AM
That is correct. Thanks Lordy.

Thought of it a couple months ago!

Im on the fence with misting. For some it brings fungus. For some it may help.

I think people underestimate climate differences, even micro climates, with this subject.

Sorce
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Brian Van Fleet on July 15, 2014, 07:25 AM
In the heat of summer I mist 3-4 times a day when I can.  I don't hit the JBP quite as frequently because I'll see some needle cast, but the rest seem to thrive.  I collected 4 RMJ last year, and misting the trunk and foliage very regularly seems to have helped ensure their survival.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Herman on July 28, 2014, 02:50 AM
Hi Guys,

I only mist newly repotted trees 1-2 times a day. I do however spray the whole tree down when i water in the afternoons to wash dust off of the leaves. I think if you provide enough water to the roots of a bonsai that has not been repotted recently it would not need to be misted very often. Where I live all my exotic deciduous trees are in morning sun with shade from before mid day, they would not make it in full sun. My indigenous trees seem to thrive on sun...the more the better with only one watering a day

kind regards
Herman
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Chrisl on July 28, 2014, 10:30 AM
In the heat of summer I mist 3-4 times a day when I can.  I don't hit the JBP quite as frequently because I'll see some needle cast, but the rest seem to thrive.  I collected 4 RMJ last year, and misting the trunk and foliage very regularly seems to have helped ensure their survival.

Brian, it seems to me that continued misting, after a tree's established/putting out new growth, will limit newer root growth if it can also count on misting.  After all, w. junis, the strength comes from the roots and once putting out new growth, that means the roots have established themselves and are strong enough to produce new buds. 

Misting is extr. important though when stabilizing a newly collected piece.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Brian Van Fleet on July 28, 2014, 09:52 PM
Brian, it seems to me that continued misting, after a tree's established/putting out new growth, will limit newer root growth if it can also count on misting.  After all, w. junis, the strength comes from the roots and once putting out new growth, that means the roots have established themselves and are strong enough to produce new buds. 

Misting is extr. important though when stabilizing a newly collected piece.
I guess I see it as they're either growing or they're not.  The 4 I collected last year are still growing, taking more water, and seem to look plumper when I'm able to mist them regularly; just seems anything I can do to keep the vascular system from drying out between leaves and roots is helpful.  I am eager to get a look at the roots of one next spring to see how my collecting experiment ( http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/south-dakota-collecting-trip-day-4 (http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/south-dakota-collecting-trip-day-4) ) worked.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Chrisl on July 29, 2014, 09:05 AM
Interestingly different thought process Brian, and one I find I can't find fault either.  I need to do more research into this as I've been purposely not misting the growing juni I collected this spring.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: jlushious on July 29, 2014, 09:39 AM
I recall seeing a video by Ryan Neil in which he says that the strength of junipers comes from the foliage, and pines get their strength from their roots. I could be wrong about that though.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: John Kirby on July 29, 2014, 06:49 PM
Misting collected, or those bare-rooted or deeply root reduced, and protecting from drying winds has been shown to be beneficial on numerous occasions. I don't think you are looking at the depth or frequency of watering seen on commercial mist propagation lines. Frequent mistings, coupled with infrequent waterings (as needed, ours have been on intervals of several days to a week on occasion) can help trees survive major shocks. Typically, with RMJ for example, the interior foliage will turn yellow as the tips activate and will then be followed by tip growth which is a good indicatir that the roots will be growing as well.  Transition from misting to conventional watering as you notice the tree using water from the pot (drys out quicker). We overhead water, thus our trees always get some misting.

The fungus danger can be real, preventative spraying should be incorporated to protect weakened trees.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Brian Van Fleet on July 30, 2014, 11:37 AM
I recall seeing a video by Ryan Neil in which he says that the strength of junipers comes from the foliage, and pines get their strength from their roots. I could be wrong about that though.
You are correct; this is what he said.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Yenling83 on July 30, 2014, 02:38 PM
Misting collected, or those bare-rooted or deeply root reduced, and protecting from drying winds has been shown to be beneficial on numerous occasions. I don't think you are looking at the depth or frequency of watering seen on commercial mist propagation lines. Frequent mistings, coupled with infrequent waterings (as needed, ours have been on intervals of several days to a week on occasion) can help trees survive major shocks. Typically, with RMJ for example, the interior foliage will turn yellow as the tips activate and will then be followed by tip growth which is a good indicatir that the roots will be growing as well.  Transition from misting to conventional watering as you notice the tree using water from the pot (drys out quicker). We overhead water, thus our trees always get some misting.

The fungus danger can be real, preventative spraying should be incorporated to protect weakened trees.

Wow, time seems to go by quickly, I asked this question a few years back now!  Kirby has fantastic advice in the quote above.  Another thing that might be

Beneficial is bottom heat.  While this is just a guess it would seem that a warmer bottom with cooler tops is the way to go for root growth.  What do you think about that Mr. Kirby?  I think sifting the fines out of your pumice is an important for survival as well.  However the amount and quality of fine roots that you get when you collect is by far the number one factor for keeping a collected juniper alive.  Certain trees with fantastic root systems get placed in full sun in my yard right after being potted up.  Misting is always a good idea, but keeping the mist off the pumice can be a challenge.   

Also that's a nice Tree Base!
 
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: wirem,e on July 30, 2014, 05:40 PM
I've been placing a thick layer of collected moss over the pumice. It is surprising how much mist it takes to penetrate into the pumice.  I do all my watering with a high volume misting nozzle, when I do want to water the pumice I pull the moss aside. I also started wrapping it up the trunk this year too, seems to be good, moisture in the pumice is controlled nicely and the moist moss raises humidity around the foliage.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: wirem,e on July 30, 2014, 09:13 PM
Like this one. You'd probably be surprised at how much misting this can take before the underlying substrate gets wet. I've pulled the moss aside many times to check on a fair number of trees with the same treatment. This one is full of growing tips now and shed a lot less foliage than I'm used to seeing so it seems like a promising method.

Sorry the pic sucks, it's all I can do with the devices available right now.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Jason E on July 30, 2014, 10:30 PM
Interesting, and nice looking material btw. how long will you leave the trunk wrapped? Tried this technique on other species than junipers?
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: wirem,e on July 31, 2014, 12:04 AM
I have a layer of thick loose moss covering the substrate of a fee spruce and firs, this is to keep the substrate moist without having to drench the mountain soil rootball too often. Moss keeping the lifelines moist on just 2 junipers.  I don't know how long I will leave it, tempting to remove it now that they are actively growing mostly because the trees are more fun to look at without covering. Possible problems with leaving it could be hiding boring beetles which so far I haven't found in my yard but the cause of death of many great old trees where I collect and maybe it could lead to fungal issues. So undecided when to remove it for now, first year doing this.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: John Kirby on July 31, 2014, 01:06 AM
If you are worried about borers/beetles have you tried spraying with  permethran? Andy Smith was using the same spray they are using on individual trees in yards and parks in the midst of the beetle breaks in SD as well as to control IPS. My take away was the permethrans are less toxic and last the full season, unlike Sevin that I usually use on collected trees. Andy was using the FMC product 'Astro'.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: wirem,e on July 31, 2014, 05:58 PM
Thanks John,

I've never used anything yet, after about 10 years of keeping and collecting yamadori I have only once found an active borer and poking a sharp bit of wire down the holes took care of it.
I have recently paid a bit more attention to dead and dying trees in the wild though and it does look like  borers are having a pretty big impact, especially with narrow lifeline junipers it doesn't take much to cut of the flow. I'll take note of the product mentioned for sure and consider preventative use.
Title: Re: What are the benefits of Misting?
Post by: Jason E on July 31, 2014, 07:38 PM
Wirem, Great stuff, thanks for sharing the info.

J